Getting Started -- A Couple More Q's

[boo radley]

OK -- while waiting for my Square Deal in .45acp to arrive (ordered through this site), I've collected calipers, a used scale, a reloading manual, a case gauge, primer flip tray, and bought a used tumbler on eBay.

I just bought 4lbs (the minimum I could find) of Vita V-something 320 powder, 1k large pistol primers, and ordered and received 500 "Laser Cast" 200gr .452 SWC bullets.

I'm just...saving money, hand over fist, with this reloading business.

Anyway. I have a couple questions, if y'all don't mind.

First of all, I ordered SWC's because I felt I *should* order them, but what advantage do they offer in IPSC? I'm wondering if I shouldn't have ordered something in a round nose, instead -- I have no idea how they'll feed in my Kimber, and if they hang, I'll be extremely unhappy.

Second, before I start chewing through these 500 bullets, and powder, I'll want to work up a load, no? What's a good sample size? 3 different powder charges? 10 of each? Adjust the powder thrower on the SD, build 10 bullets, adjust it again, build 10 more, then see how they shoot? I'm after something softer-shooting than the 230gr copper-jacketed RN factory stuff I've been shooting.

What about the OAL? This exact bullet type isn't listed in my Lyman's #48 manual. Is it reasonably safe to accept the value for another SWC profile, and just set it to that length? I'd like as few variables as possible.

Thx all.

[XRe]

I'm just...saving money, hand over fist, with this reloading business. 

Heh - it feels like that, doesn't it You don't save money, you just shoot more ammo.....

First of all, I ordered SWC's because I felt I *should* order them, but what advantage do they offer in IPSC? I'm wondering if I shouldn't have ordered something in a round nose, instead -- I have no idea how they'll feed in my Kimber, and if they hang, I'll be extremely unhappy.

SWCs will punch nice round holes in paper - like a cookie cutter. They might have some feeding problems - it depends on your gun, really. There are some minor things you can do to the pistol to help that out, too (polish the throat, etc), if you want. A LRN or FMJ (anything with a round nose) is going to give you the best feeding properties.

I used to shoot a 225gr LTC (lead truncated cone) bullet that had nice properties - it still punches out a circle (thought small than the bullet diameter), but feeds better than a SWC. You quite possibly will have no issues, though...

Second, before I start chewing through these 500 bullets, and powder, I'll want to work up a load, no?

I usually would pick a load that's a good 10% below max, or the starting load, whichever is higher. Load 20 or so of those. Then edge up .1 gr or 2 and load 10-15 of those. Maybe repeat that, depending on the load - don't exceed any book maximums, though, in doing this. Chrono several (say, 10), examine for pressure signs, and then shoot the rest against factory hard ball to compare the feel and accuracy. Then do the next higher up batch.

If you start to see pressure signs before you reach the hottest of the loads you've set up, STOP! You can always "recycle" those loads by using a bullet puller (or, you can just throw 'em away, too).

Keep good records, and keep each load labeled so that you can tell them apart. If you're not making major w/ any of those, and have no pressure signs, iterate the above again, and so on.

The VV manual shows a 1.240" OAL, 200gr LSWC load w/ N320 starting at 4.7gr making 888fps out of a 6" test barrel. The max load listed is 5.1gr at 958fps. So, maybe start at 4.7, then load 4.8 and 4.9, too. You're going to lose a little over the 6" barrel - but the 4.7gr load may still be Major (the book's load is 177PF or so!). You *may* be able to work down from the min charge, but its set as a minimum for a reason. I wouldn't recommend this as a first step - and do some research here and elsewhere before taking that step. You can download the book here: http://www.vihtavuori-lapua.com/reloading.asp

You can also do some searches on this forum for 200gr .45 loads to get some other ideas...

What about the OAL? This exact bullet type isn't listed in my Lyman's #48 manual. Is it reasonably safe to accept the value for another SWC profile, and just set it to that length? I'd like as few variables as possible.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You want to use an OAL that allows good feeding. 1.250" is the nominal length of a .45ACP 230gr FMJ load, but you can go a little shorter. The thing to keep in mind is that if you go shorter, it's going to increase pressure. So, back off your powder charge and work back up. I'd say its pretty safe to accept the OAL for a different bullet of the same profile and weight as long as you're working your loads up from the low end.

You're starting out with what is one of the most forgiving cartridges to reload (at least, in my experience). .45 is such a low pressure round, and the guns and cases are so tough, that it takes a pretty grievous error to get into real trouble - that's not to encourage you to be careless, though. But, you have some leeway as long as you're following all the safety rules, etc

[Gun Geek]

XRe is right, you won't save a dime, but you will shoot more and you will shoot more tailored ammo.

My Speer manual gives an OAL of 1.185 for SWCs, but make a couple of dummy rounds (no primer or powder) and make sure they feed ok. Put them in a magazine and work the slide. You'll know if there is a problem. You really shouldn't have a problem with a Kimber.

You are going to have to get access to a chrono if you want the softest possible. Otherwise, XRe's right on.

Also, I know you're trying to go as cheap as possible, but think about a different kind of bullet. Look at some plated (Berry, West Coast, etc) or coated (Masterblasters, Precision). The prices will be similar and you won't have that cloud of smoke hanging over your head as you're firing.

Becareful about being too cheap. If something seems wrong, throw it away or disassemble it correctly. Better to toss a couple of pieces of brass than lose an eye or a finger.

[XRe]

I concur w/ GunGeek re: the smoke factor - though for outdoors, its usually not *too* bad.

Just to add interesting facts, the SAAMI spec OAL for .45 is 1.275". My Speer #11 (old) lists this same OAL for all loads for .45 ACP in that manual - I suspect GunGeek's Speer is newer . Hodgdon lists between 1.155" (185gr JSWC) and 1.200" (230gr FMJ) on their website. So, there's some leeway.

If in doubt - a good rule of thumb would be to load them as long as you can and still have 100% reliability. GunGeek has a good procedure for determining that above - you can always shorten the dummies until they work, and then load at that length.

[lynn jones]

hey boo,

my dog's name is scout!

[boo radley]

This is helping a lot, thx.

I still am confused about the SWC's advantage, or prevalence in IPSC/IDPA, though. I would think if there was even a chance it wouldn't feed as well as round-nose, the design wouldn't be used, but almost everyone I talked to that handloaded, last Saturday, was shooting SWC's.

I realize my sample size is pretty small, however!

Xre -- I appreciate the link to the 320 powder data. Suppose I work up a couple dummies that are 1.200" long, and the feed well, as I rack the slide.

The mix/max range for this powder is 4.7/5.1. If I pick "4.8" as a number, load 10, and as long as they're fast enough to make major, I'm done, right? Surely it will still be softer than the factory 230gr FMJ? At my range I can rent a chronograph for a nominal fee. The major power factor for L10 is 170?

[D.Hayden]

Minor = 125PF, Major = 165PF

[XRe]

Well, realize that the OAL used in the VV book was 1.240 - that 4 hundreths makes a difference. If you're going to go at 1.200" and it feeds, start at the min, and work up or down slightly from there. Remember that, when you deviate from the dimensions a manufacturer used to develop their load data, you have to leave some extra margin. You're *probably* ok, even, to start at 4.5 or so, with the shorter OAL. Again, do a little research here, and see what folks are doing.

IIRC, SWC bullets were first popular in Bullseye (because of the nice hole they make) "softball" loads. They carried over from there. If your gun runs them fine, no worries - but no *real* reason to run those over a round profile bullet, as the bullet overlay is the same for any .45 caliber bullet

BTW - I wouldn't stop with "if I load it at X and it makes major, I'm done". I'd tone the load down if it's over 170 PF. If its in between 165 and 170, you're ok. Any more than 170 causes extra recoil energy - though you may wish to have the extra margin. You're looking for a velocity range of 825-850, which is below VV book, anyhow. If you're going to shorten OAL, the same powder charge is going to yield higher velocities, so you'll need to back off some to get to the right range.

[Flexmoney]

boo radley,

Sounds like you might be looking to save a few dimes down the road (you are starting out with top-shelf components...which is a good idea).

As you burn up those bullets and powder, you might be on the look-out for something a bit cheaper that performs nearly as well...

Since the guys you shoot with use 200 SWC, you can expect that one or more of them has a source for them locally. I don't know where you are located, but somebody near you is likely casting these bullets. I have near actually shot the "Laser Cast" bullets, but from what I hear, they are great. But, I am sure that a local guy (that gets repeat business) will get you darn close to those...without the cost.

Same thing on powder. The VV320 you have is top shelf, expensive, and can be hard to find. You have LOTS of great alternatives in the 45 (WST, TiteGroup, 231...)

[Flexmoney]

Oh...I forget what length most all 200 SWC's are loaded to? Am I right in thinking that the shoulder of the bullet should (on visual inspection) stick out of the brass somewhere between the thickness of a fingernail (min.) and the thickness of a dime (max)???

[XRe]

Am I right in thinking that the shoulder of the bullet should (on visual inspection) stick out of the brass somewhere between the thickness of a fingernail (min.) and the thickness of a dime (max)???

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is what you call "precision reloading", right???

See, boo, there's *lots* of fudge factor in .45

[iweiny]

One more thing about the OAL and feeding...

When we started (just a couple of months ago) we got a bunch of lead SWC bullets and had them loaded up. Luckily I was just at a practice where they run a stage and I did "load and make ready" and sure thing they did not feed! I am like WTFO, cause I had been shooting in my league with them for a couple of weeks.

Turns out they would feed if my mags were NOT full. I have 10rd mags and the spring tension was different and my league I only load 6rds/string.

So make sure they feed with full mags all the way down to just one...

BTW I did get them to feed by loading a bit longer. But we have gone back to ball ammo just to make sure... ;-)

Ira

[Gun Geek]

Boo:

The primary use of SWCs is big, clean cut holes. The holes look like they were made with a hole punch, instead of jamming a pencil through the target. This has 2 pluses:

1) In every match you'll probably notice at least one shot that the big hole gets you the next higher score.

2) Big holes make it easy to scan for hits on target and deciding if a make-up is warranted. Unfortunately this can lead to some bad habits - looking at the target and trying to see if you hit it instead of calling your shot.

My Speer manual is #13, so it is newer than XRe's. My Hodgdon manual also shows the same OAL (1.185) for LSWCs. But, as I said before, I view that as a guide (not a rule). I do what flex said - just set the shoulder above the case mouth, then make sure it feeds.

Also making dummy rounds makes it easy to re-set your dies later if you take them apart (say to clean them), and reload practice (better with a full heavy mag instead of empty light one, there is a diff).

I use Clays powder. It is about $110 for 8lbs and at 4.3gn per round I get something like 13,000 rounds out of a keg.

[boo radley]

Boo:

The primary use of SWCs is big, clean cut holes.  The holes look like they were made with a hole punch, instead of jamming a pencil through the target.  This has 2 pluses:

1) In every match you'll probably notice at least one shot that the big hole gets you the next higher score.

2) Big holes make it easy to scan for hits on target and deciding if a make-up is warranted.  Unfortunately this can lead to some bad habits - looking at the target and trying to see if you hit it instead of calling your shot.

My Speer manual is #13, so it is newer than XRe's.  My Hodgdon manual also shows the same OAL (1.185) for LSWCs.  But, as I said before, I view that as a guide (not a rule).  I do what flex said - just set the shoulder above the case mouth, then make sure it feeds.

Also making dummy rounds makes it easy to re-set your dies later if you take them apart (say to clean them), and reload practice (better with a full heavy mag instead of empty light one, there is a diff).

I use Clays powder.  It is about $110 for 8lbs and at 4.3gn per round I get something like 13,000 rounds out of a keg.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That makes sense. I knew SWC's were handy for Bullseye, and can appreciate how a larger hole might turn C's into A's....

Earlier today, I emailed Laser-cast, asking about OAL, and got a very prompt reply (man, gotta like that, in a Co.): they suggested 1.250" as recommended for their bullets.

Since the press hasn't arrived yet, I amused myself a few minutes ago making a dummy round with a pair of pliers, and sure enough -- at 1.235" (squeezed it too hard) -- there's a bare sliver of shoulder exposed; I'm not sure I'd want to go any shorter....

The V320 was $79 for 4lbs, locally, (plus 7% sales tax), and 1k Winchester LPP primers were $19.95. I didn't want 4lbs, nor did I necessarily want V320, but it was all the store had, and this was the 2nd store I had visited. 500 of these Laser-cast bullets ran $26.45 plus, say, $10 shipping, since I ordered some other things from Midway. I've been saving my brass, and that I can find, and have around 1k pieces, give or take.

So hmm....1k rounds will cost approx $100-110 all things being equal, and I was paying $19.95+ for Winchester White Box at WalMart, a chain I'm not much fond of, and much more at other stores. So I'll be saving around $100 per 1000.

Now I just need to shoot 5000 rounds to pay for the Square Deal, tumbler, scale, and other items. And I don't have a gun, c.f.: the 'MIM Parts' thread. <sigh>

Despite my grumbling, I'm looking forward to this, and like the idea of a softer-shooting, accurate, customized load in .45acp. Still -- beginning this path would have been a whole HELL of a lot cheaper if I picked up a used Glock 9mm, and a couple thousand rounds of surplus ammo.

[Gun Geek]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That makes sense. I knew SWC's were handy for Bullseye, and can appreciate how a larger hole might turn C's into A's....

Earlier today, I emailed Laser-cast, asking about OAL, and got a very prompt reply (man, gotta like that, in a Co.): they suggested 1.250" as recommended for their bullets.

Since the press hasn't arrived yet,  I amused myself a few minutes ago making a dummy round with a pair of pliers, and sure enough -- at 1.235" (squeezed it too hard) -- there's a bare sliver of shoulder exposed; I'm not sure I'd want to go any shorter....

The V320 was $79 for 4lbs, locally, (plus 7% sales tax), and 1k Winchester LPP primers were $19.95. I didn't want 4lbs, nor did I necessarily want V320, but it was all the store had, and this was the 2nd store I had visited. 500 of these Laser-cast bullets ran $26.45 plus, say, $10 shipping, since I ordered some other things from Midway. I've been saving my brass, and that I can find, and have around 1k pieces, give or take. 

So hmm....1k rounds will cost approx $100-110 all things being equal, and I was paying $19.95+ for Winchester White Box at WalMart, a chain I'm not much fond of, and much more at other stores. So I'll be saving around $100 per 1000.

Now I just need to shoot 5000 rounds to pay for the Square Deal, tumbler, scale, and other items.  And I don't have a gun, c.f.: the 'MIM Parts' thread. <sigh>

Despite my grumbling, I'm looking forward to this, and like the idea of a softer-shooting, accurate, customized load in .45acp. Still -- beginning this path would have been a whole HELL of a lot cheaper if I picked up a used Glock 9mm, and a couple thousand rounds of surplus ammo. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Try these guys (http://www.powdervalleyinc.com/) - they might be a little cheaper on the powder and primers even after shipping and hazmat fees, especially if you and a buddy get a volume order together.

[Azone41]

Great to hear that you have started reloading. Like everybody else has said SWC are fine if they feed in your gun. When buying reloading supplies it pays to buy in bulk. Buying in bulk is much easier if you can do it with some friends everybody get together and places a big order from one place. My last order was almost 500 bucks (8lbs powder,10,000 primers,4000 zeros) this is the best way to save money when reloading. It is very true that most of the money you will save will end up down range in a brem because you will shoot alot more rounds. Talk to the people at the range or club chances are they are already doing mass orders then you can strat saving up for the next order.

[Flexmoney]

You have made great choices so far.

Once you get up and running for a bit...

You will find that you can buy an 8lb jug of TiteGroup for about the same as you are paying for a 4lb jug of vv320...primers by the case (5k) work out to closer to $15/k than $20. Bullets from a local guy will likely save you half, if you can pick them up and not have them shipped.

Like has been said...ask around. You will likely have to get in on a group order...and somebody you shoot with likely does one.

[boo radley]

Thanks again, all. Got the Dillon SD, set it up, and managed to crank out a few bullets w/out killing myself.

I did make a few mistakes: I didn't realize one was supposed to put a clip on the clear end of the primer tube. I turned it upside down, to load, and....yeah. I also didn't realize at first that the primer is seated on the upstroke, and many of the first batch had primers barely pressed into the pocket. Had a few problems with the RCBS 505 scale, too -- it's a PITA, to use, and I wish I'd spent the money to get a digital one.

Otherwise, things went pretty smoothly, and I have 3 sets of 25 rounds at different powder levels, to try tonight. I worked up a few primer-less dummy rounds to determine the COL, which needed a little tweaking, and they seem to cycle fine in the Kimber, at least by hand. I see why calipers are a "must-have."

I can see the SD being an efficient little monster, once I get comfortable with it, and I'm impressed with Dillon's customer support -- called them twice with minor setup issues/questions, and received a human almost immediately, and knowledgeable, friendly answer.

[robomanusa]

I load all my 200gr SWC lead rounds to 1.240 which leaves approx .020 of the shoulder outside the case for setting the case mouth back against.

The lead bullets I use are Vance or some old Houston ones I have a ton of.

5.0gr of titegroup works well for me.

[Run n Gun]

My old load, for 15-18K rounds, was a 200 LSWC over 4.7grs Titegroup @ 1.250".

It was absolutely reliable when I used a H&G #68 profile bullet (like Laser-Cast, Meister and others, it IS the most common profile) but when I tried other 200-SWC shapes like West Coast's the great feeding that I was used to went straight out the window!

Why did I quit using it? Lead’s smoky and I got bit by the heavy-slow bug from THIS guy… but what does HE know, right? I still use lead for practice because, like me, it's cheap!

Ed

[boo radley]

Well, I took 3 boxes to the range last night, and shot them through a chronograph, 10 shots ea., and now I'm scratching my head....

Laser-Cast 200gr SWC 4.7gr n320 @ 1.260" 5" barrel: 816 fps. This was clearly the most consistent load though: spread was 32fps and SD was 11.

Same load with 5gr, and my average was 841 fps, but the spread for 10 shots was over 100fps(!) and the SD was a whopping 32. Could that .3gr really cause that much inconsistency? Or did I just not work the handle consistently on the Square Deal, or otherwise make some loading error?

Same load with 4.4gr, and I forget what the average was but it was under 800fps, and it was somewhat consistent. Standard deviation for 10 rounds was like 19, or 20.

So the 4.7gr load seems to be very consistent, and it's certainly easy-shooting, but doesn't make major, as-is.

Here is VV's data:

The VV manual shows a 1.240" OAL, 200gr LSWC load w/ N320 starting at 4.7gr making 888fps out of a 6" test barrel.

Would a 1" shorter barrel and .02" difference in OAL make that much difference -- ie, 888fps vs. 816? Wow.

So I need to make some changes. First, I want to load to the bullet mfg'er specs, at 1.250". I'd intended to, but either the SD drifted a little bit, or else my measuring technique with calipers was off (more likely) because the loads are 0.01" longer...Second, I'll try 4.8gr. I don't think I'm liable to be challenged by a chronograph in a match, anytime soon, but I don't want to cheat, regardless.

[XRe]

1" of barrel + shorter OAL might could make that much difference - the OAL possibly being more to blame than barrel length. Check all the press settings and make sure everything's still tight, and reset as necessary. If the dies weren't completely tight, that could partially explain the spreads you were seeing, too. Also, your crimp might be a little lighter than the crimp VV used and your barrel may be "slower" than their test barrel - remember, every gun is different

If the loads run, it's not mandatory to shorten the OAL (max SAAMI spec is 1.275, so you're within that), but you can certainly do that. 1.250 is just a nice number

Congrats on shooting your first loads, and welcome to the world of load development BTW - take a look at your cases, and make sure the primers look good, etc, just as a habit when developing loads...

[DogmaDog]

Before I switched to limited, I shot a Kimber in L10. I loaded a 200gr SWC over 4.6gr WST, loaded to 1.260" OAL. Made right around 170 PF.

WST was $98 for an 8lb can. I got the bullets from a local supplier for $35 per thousand (I think...might have been $30, or $40). I used Win large primers, and bought them by the 5000, to save money.

Never had functioning problems with the SWCs in my Kimber.

When working up a load, I loaded 50 of each candidate, starting with a low charge, and increasing in 0.2gr increments, using loading manuals to guide me (download free loading info from powder manufacturers websites! Lasercast also publishes a good manual they gave me free for buying 2000 of their bullets). I had to drive 1.5 hours to go to the range, so I wanted to make sure I would get ALL the data I'd need to decide on a load. I loaded 2 powders, 2 bullets, and 3 charge weights each...12 different loads, 50 rounds each.

I chrony at least 10 per sample, and use the remaining 40 to get an idea of accuracy, "feel", and function of the load (if it didn't make major, I'd stop testing after the chrony).

WST shot cleaner than Titegroup, and the 200 LSWCs were cheaper than the 230 LRNs, and I couldn't tell the difference otherwise, at a given PF, so I went with the 200s, and WST for my "standard load".

Also, when I load, I weigh charges, and measure rounds both at the beginning of the session, and again at the end. If there's a difference, then I know something is going on with the press that needs fixing. Usually, weighing 10 charges at a time will vary within 0.3 grains, OALs will vary by +/- 0.001", or maybe 0.0015"...that's what I get, anyway.

Enough yacking from me...hope it helps.

DD