Idpa Stage Not Given Approval.

[Sac Law Man]

Thanks Flex..I appreciate the feedback..

rmills...the theory about unloading the gun on T2 was it a hard target to hit,,ie; moving (swinger)..and would take numerous shots to guarantee stopping the BG, as opposed to T1 who was much closer and stationary.

I think in IDPA we get to fixated on shooitng only 2 rounds at each target..Its definately somehting I think about since I carry a gun for a living..

[Gun Geek]

I think in IDPA we get to fixated on shooitng only 2 rounds at each target..Its definately somehting I think about since I carry a gun for a living..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yep.

The other problem we have is that truly "defensive" stages (i.e. fit the statistical profile of civilian shootings of 1 or 2 targets, 5 yards or less, 2-3 rounds (no more than 5) or less, everybody running backwards as fast as they can) just aren't any fun. Would anybody travel to a big match with 10 stages and a round count of 25?

Most of the stages I've shot in big matches would not come close to being "defensive" under Kentucky law, so you would probably get the book thrown at you.

So we try to balance...

[AWLAZS]

OK, I'll bite - here's my guess as to reasons the stages were not approved. 

1) Politics/perception - this is one of those things that could be easily twisted by the media to be terrorist training.

2) The scenario doesn't sound realistic (could be a shooting that goes down like this, but not at an airport):

- If you're LE and authorized to carry a gun through a check point, it wouldn't likely be unloaded and in a briefcase.

-If you are checking in a gun for transport, the TSA usually doesn't get involved unless something is wrong.  In this case you would be standing at the ticket counter or on your way to the "little room"  The gun and ammo are supposed to be kept in seperate containers, with ammo being in "factory packaging"  I might extend Dillon ammo boxes to be "Factory", but loaded mags are not "Factory Packaging" and are generaly forbidden.

Ok, how'd I do?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not all LEO,s carry ther weapon onto the plane. If I was flying to a training I would check my gun with unloaded mags. Ammo has to be in a container designed to hold ammo. They dont hold you to the factory package(here at least)

TSA screens evey bag gun or not. They do handle them but not in a manor where the general population would see them.

[Crusher]

SLM I'm sorry that they "shot your stage down", tweek it a bit and they (AC) allow it with some mods.

I have a really simple formula for stage design:

1. Chalanging (from a gun handling/Accuracy standpoint)

2. FUN (enjoyable to shoot because of the gun handling/accuracy)

3. Mutiple shooting solutions (YES, this CAN BE DONE even in IDPA, through the use of props/target type/placement of both threats and non-threats).

Most times I write nothing more than a stage decription with starting position and proceedure and let ths shooters "solve the stage problem" within the confines of the rules. (BTW it is the competitors job to know the rules and the RO/SO's job to enforce them)

If a "senerio" for justification of stage design is required "make it up", "improvise" after you design the stage I find it much easier working backwards in the IDPA arena.

[rmills]

"I think in IDPA we get to fixated on shooitng only 2 rounds at each target..Its definately somehting I think about since I carry a gun for a living.."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I can't remember the last match where we didn't shoot at least two stages that required 3 hits on a target. You must be referring to the other sport in regards to the two rounds per target fixation.

[Flexmoney]

Good one Roy. Nice dig. Feel better?

[OpnBlstr]

but loaded mags are not "Factory Packaging" and are generaly forbidden.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Slightly OT but I thought some would find this interesting.

Last year my brother and I were flying with our guns. He checked his limited SVI with the ticket counter and the TSA guy of course came out to glance in the case. He asks "Wow, what is that, a Desert Eagle?" Well, uhhhhhh, no.

When we got to the destination the pistol case was still locked but the mags that *were* empty and packed with the gun now contained his loaded ammunition pulled from his shooting bag and were put back in with the pistol.

At some point someone behind the scenes had gone into his shooting bag, removed loaded rounds from his bullet boxes and loaded the mags after which they put the loaded mags in with the pistol.

We never counted rounds to see if any had been expended and the pistol was already dirty from the day before but now I stab the firing pins of my pistols into the case foam in a way not easily found just to protect the airport people from themselves!

[rmills]

Good one Roy.  Nice dig.     Feel better?  

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just wanted to clarify as to not to create confusion or perpetuate misunderstandings concerning IDPA........

[Ted Murphy]

I can see why he panned it.

Some guys will get to shoot 4 rounds on it and move on, others will have to shoot 9 on it. It is not a very consistent stage.

I know the argument is that the divisions do not compete, and I am not addressing that.

The guy shooting the 9 shot single stack will have a slight advantage over the guy shooting the 10 shot ESP widebody. The difference of a split may not amount to much, but it is not suprising that they would weigh in on this. After all, real or perceived, it becomes an equipment advantage and IDPA tries like hell to not have them.

You can argue that this logic would apply well to a 16 shot stage too; 7 round CDP shooters will have to do an extra reload over an 8 round CDP shooter. However, there is a difference in this stage. on a 16 and 18 round stage, EVERYONE has to shoot that much. Making a stage with a max round count that is variable depending on the gun you shoot is not the same issue, and it isn't fair.

Also, this stage can be gamed out quite a bit, and you are pretty much setting up a trap for people trying to compensate for the inequities of shooting a higher capacity gun than others in their division. It may be a fun stage, but could easily tranform itself into a "screw the shooter" stage too.

I bet if you did this at the match, it would be the stage you'd be reading and hearing a lot of negative stuff about, for a while after the match.

Lastly, it isn't even very real. If you are going to have a stage where you are checking a gun with loaded magazines, you probably should have the shooter start proned out wearing handcuffs, cause I suspect that's where you'd be pretty quickly.

Ted

[f250sd]

Sac Law Man, Maybe if you were to change it up a little, for ex.: You are recovering a gun and extra mag from a downed officer/security, The gun has six rounds total in it, the extra mag is loaded to capacity. The rest of the CoF stays the same, 2rds on T1, 4rds on T2(swinger), slidelock, reload, 1rd to the head on T1. You get your slide lock reload, and every one shoots the same round count. Would that comply with all of the CoF rules?

[solaritx]

Generally a good stage. I would agree with f250sd, make it a downed individual and shooter is using "found" weapon. To "save" target, would change round count slightly (as most shoot extra shots on movers/swingers anyway). Another "problem" is "calling" shots on movers and sometimes stationary targets. I would re-word the scenario slightly. I would load 4 in the gun as the wounded individual was already in a "gunfight".

Scenario: Load 4 rounds in gun and then place gun facing downrange with all mags/reloaders to be used beside dummy. At buzzer, engage T1 with one (1) scored round and T2 with three (3) scored rounds in tactical order. Reload weapon and reengage all threats with a minimum of one additional round each in tactical order. Score T1 with 2 scored rounds of which one is a mandatory head shot. Score T2 with 4 scored round of which one is a mandatory head shot.

Don't get to empty the gun, but all divisions would shoot it the same, and as "fair" for everyone as possible.

As matter of fact, I prob. will use this scenario at the weekly local match either this week or next.

Garry N

[kdmoore]

I'll go on record as liking the stage as designed. Sub groups already shoot every stage differently (7/8 rnd CDP and 9/10 round ESP et al), this one happens to give a slight advantage. IIRC, I've seen some 11 round stages, vickers count, to reward accuracy. But they hammer any 9 round ESP guns. Probably at a local level?

Flex's concern on knowing what's behind the target is implied on all stages. But since you started in a crowded area and have encouraged a bit of "spray" you might want to write into the description something along the lines of ... Seeing T2 dodging and ducking, and having assertained folks have split and he's in front of a concrete wall .... Also, Flex's comment on target/stick replacements is spot on. 9 rounds on a swinger, in a "sprayed" fashion, will wreak havoc. But if you are willing to handle it .....

You can out think any stage with tactical reads. But knowing you nailed T1 enough to switch attention, and NOT having a feel that T2 has been dealt with can be real and certainly could be written in. Only folks allowed to complain are those with excess COM shots Reminds me of the lawyer that escaped 5 rounds point blank in Utah a year or so back. Dodging behind a tree ... I know the shooter had no skill, but still, wow. So you shoot to SL on the mover, then during a threat scan you see a T1 trying to pick up a pistol ...

solartix, a head shot on a swinger? yeowch! But I do like the idea of allowing the better shooters to separate themselves.

[MR_not-so_INCREDIBLE]

I thought your stage sounded like fun . I guess I'm too naive; I thought these dang games were supposed to be fun . Oh well, I guess I'm kinda mellow about these things cause I can't shoot well enough to win . Maybe one day I'll be good enough to fuss over "who gets more ammo on that stage than I do" . BTW, I'm just kiddin a little, no offense intended to anyone who takes these things a little more serious (but I did like your stage SLM) . Cheers!

[Sac Law Man]

Thanks guys, I too thought it was a good stage. Maybe it needs a little tweaking. You can play "what if" all day long, however in the end, it is still just a game. Really goes to show you the complexity of stage design. Thanks for the all the comments, opinions and suggestions..

John

[sixx]

what's "realistic" about putting 20 rds into one enemy, before addressing the other? I'd be firing at most 2 rds at the first guy, before getting some lead into attacker number 2.