Production Class rules question-

[mbwmn]

Please excuse the noob question, but I want to make sure I'm interpreting rules correctly...

Can I run an extended mag release button on my otherwise factory stock Sig P226 9mm? It's works really well and does not interfere with my holster, but when reviewing rules for another reason it would appear this mod may put me in a different class. I can swap it back but I may not have an opportunity to test afterward....

Thanks

-mike

[mbwmn]

Oh, this: http://www.idptactical.com/store/p8/Sig_P220_Extended_Mag_Release.html

[JMike]

See Appendix D4 section 21-6:

"Any other components which are externally visible may ONLY be replaced with OFM parts which are offered on the specific model of gun or another approved gun from the same manufacturer except as specifically clarified below. Examples of external components which may only be replaced with OFM parts include (but are not limited to): magazine releases, slide stops, thumb safeties and triggers. "

So the answer is no, unless you want to compete in a division other than Production.

[PatJones]

It's legal for limited.

[bikerburgess]

I believe a recently released ruling from the DNROI makes aftermarket mag released legal if they only extend the length and have the factory profile (no big head)

[FTDMFR]

"Class" is for skill level (GM, M, A, etc.) and "division" is for equipment type (Production, Limited, etc.)

[JMike]

I believe a recently released ruling from the DNROI makes aftermarket mag released legal if they only extend the length and have the factory profile (no big head)

Not to be argumentative but do you have a reference? I've checked the USPSA website for NROI updates and I can't find anything but there is always the possibility that I've overlooked something.

[Out of Ammo]

I agee, there's nothing wrong with an extended mag release as long as it is doesn't have a larger "head". I run an extended release and I shoot production. Refer to page 83 in the 2014 USPSA Handbook under 21.6 for production division.

Edited October 31, 2015 by Out of Ammo

[Gary Stevens]

I believe a recently released ruling from the DNROI makes aftermarket mag released legal if they only extend the length and have the factory profile (no big head)

Not to be argumentative but do you have a reference? I've checked the USPSA website for NROI updates and I can't find anything but there is always the possibility that I've overlooked something.

I was on the BOD and pushed for this rule which was adopted. You can extend the length but not increase the surface area.

[JMike]

I believe a recently released ruling from the DNROI makes aftermarket mag released legal if they only extend the length and have the factory profile (no big head)

Not to be argumentative but do you have a reference? I've checked the USPSA website for NROI updates and I can't find anything but there is always the possibility that I've overlooked something.

I was on the BOD and pushed for this rule which was adopted. You can extend the length but not increase the surface area.

Thanks for the reply. Does this apply to magazine releases that are not OFM parts for the USPSA Approved Production pistol?

[Sarge]

I believe a recently released ruling from the DNROI makes aftermarket mag released legal if they only extend the length and have the factory profile (no big head)

Not to be argumentative but do you have a reference? I've checked the USPSA website for NROI updates and I can't find anything but there is always the possibility that I've overlooked something.

It's been in the new rule book all along production app 21.6

[JMike]

I believe a recently released ruling from the DNROI makes aftermarket mag released legal if they only extend the length and have the factory profile (no big head)

Not to be argumentative but do you have a reference? I've checked the USPSA website for NROI updates and I can't find anything but there is always the possibility that I've overlooked something.

It's been in the new rule book all along production app 21.6

Sarge, I have the rulebook right here in front of me and I referenced the rulebook when I posted my original reply. The rulebook is very explicit in what it says. The OP wants to use a part that is NOT OFM in a Production Sig pistol. The part in question is NOT manufactured by Sig, nor is it manufactured by the Sig "Custom Shop" on a custom gun that has been approved by USPSA as a Production legal pistol.

The rule, in its entirety, is quoted below:

"21.6 Exchange of Minor External Components:

Sights, firing pins, firing pin retainers, pins, extractors and ejectors MAY be replaced with OFM or aftermarket parts.

Any other components which are externally visible may ONLY be replaced with OFM parts which are offered on the specific model of gun or another approved gun from the same manufacturer except as specifically clarified below. Examples of external components which may only be replaced with OFM parts include (but are not limited to): magazine releases, slide stops, thumb safeties and triggers.

The Vanek trigger, much like the Speed Bump trigger, has an external modification that makes it illegal for Production division. The Speed Bump trigger has the travel screw mounted to the rear of the trigger and is visible externally, the Vanek trigger, has relocated the pivot pin about 3/16” above the factory specs, and has filled in the original hole with a black material that is still visible on inspection.

Special Notes/Clarifications:

•Barrels are considered “external parts” and are subject to specific restrictions in 21.4 and associated rulings.

•A factory/OFM magazine release which extends only the length of the magazine release may be used. A magazine release which provides a larger surface area (paddles, buttons) may only be used if it is an OFM part available on an approved model of gun.

•Externally-visible parts from “custom shop” guns will only be considered “OFM parts” if the custom-shop gun is on the NROI list of approved Production guns. "

Please tell me, anyone, how is a non-OFM part is production legal based on the rulebook? I don't get it.

I understand that it is legal for Limited Division but we are talking about a Production gun. What am I missing here?

Edited November 1, 2015 by JMike

[grapemeister]

It didn't make into the 2014 rule book, but Troy has said it will be remedied, eventually. Anyhow, there was NROI ruling in 2009. Here's the link.

http://www.uspsa.org/bodminutes/20090307_production_2of3.html

Edit to add: The ruling was that aftermarket releases are allowed if they only extend the length.

Edited November 1, 2015 by grapemeister

[JMike]

It didn't make into the 2014 rule book, but Troy has said it will be remedied, eventually. Anyhow, there was NROI ruling in 2009. Here's the link.

http://www.uspsa.org/bodminutes/20090307_production_2of3.html

Edit to add: The ruling was that aftermarket releases are allowed if they only extend the length.

GEEZ LOUISE!

Thank you!

I am absolutely stupefied by the idea that the date on this ruling is March 2009 and it hasn't yet made it into the 2014 rule book!

I scanned the very link you provided on the USPSA website and thought to my self, "nah...no way in hell that wouldn't be in the 2014 rule book". Just how freaking hard is it to update a stinking PDF file???

So, I stand corrected. Rock on OP!

Thanks to Grapemeister for taking the time to point out an actual reference to the rule.

Edited November 1, 2015 by JMike

[mbwmn]

wow, thanks for all the feedback!

From the manufacturer's description it would appear that the release has a larger surface area. I will be swapping it back to OE and hoping it's isolated from the trigger/fire control enough that I don't create any other issues. I won't have time to live fire test before competition.

from IDP:Features:

Competition Extended Mag Release

Designed for easy manipulation of the mag release by extending and widening the pad in which you depress.

It will find a home on one of the other P series that live here.

thanks-

[bikerburgess]

I believe a recently released ruling from the DNROI makes aftermarket mag released legal if they only extend the length and have the factory profile (no big head)

Not to be argumentative but do you have a reference? I've checked the USPSA website for NROI updates and I can't find anything but there is always the possibility that I've overlooked something.

You are correct. I asked Troy the question a while ago and he said he was going to publish the ruling, apparently it hasn't happened yet.

So I amend my answer to it will once again be legal to use a aftermarket mag release when the ruling is finally published.

[Nik Habicht]

I've always questioned whether rulings released prior to rulebook publication should be considered valid. In other words, if we're using the 2014 rules, shouldn't rules interpretations -- which by definition clarify things contained in the current rulebook that might be unclear -- be dated at the same time or later than the current rulebook?

Seems simple to me if you want to keep the interpretation -- you simply review it and give it a new effective date, if it should remain in force.....

[Sarge]

It didn't make into the 2014 rule book, but Troy has said it will be remedied, eventually. Anyhow, there was NROI ruling in 2009. Here's the link.

http://www.uspsa.org/bodminutes/20090307_production_2of3.html

Edit to add: The ruling was that aftermarket releases are allowed if they only extend the length.

GEEZ LOUISE!

Thank you!

I am absolutely stupefied by the idea that the date on this ruling is March 2009 and it hasn't yet made it into the 2014 rule book!

I scanned the very link you provided on the USPSA website and thought to my self, "nah...no way in hell that wouldn't be in the 2014 rule book". Just how freaking hard is it to update a stinking PDF file???

So, I stand corrected. Rock on OP!

Thanks to Grapemeister for taking the time to point out an actual reference to the rule.

Jmike I have read the op post 3 times and I still can't see where he says he wants to use a non off part. He says he wants to use an extended mag release which is legal. Anybody who has even dabbled a little in production knows an extended mag release can be used regardless of manufacturer. There are literally thousands of production guns running these things. I put an extended release on my xdm years ago. It's made by PRP.

The subject has also been discussed at length on here multiple times so a basic search would have also found it.

[grapemeister]

From reading the below cut and pasted article "New Production Rules" in Front Sight, I can understand why some may be wondering if there was no effective date and the document or so called ruling was put out there as more or less something that's up for review and some changes may be made, was this ever an official ruling or rule change?

The document does say that NROI issues the ruling and it was published in Front Sight Magazine, so I'm thinking it was and is official.

Edit to add: Curiously, this ruling is not included in the list of NROI rulings at the USPSA website. Like so many others, I've only heard 2nd and 3rd hand that Mr. McManus and Mr. Amidon have said the extended releases are legal, and I, like so many others, understand them as being legal, but it would be nice to get it published in the official rule book, and/or included in the list of official NROI rulings to settle it once and for all.

The following article was in the May/June 2009 issue of Front Sight

New Production Rules

The Board also agreed that Production

Division needed adjustment. The

following is a guide as to what to expect.

At the time of this writing, the information

below is posted along with

the BOD statement and a FAQ document

on the www.uspsa.org/members

page. The effective date at this time is

not determined and some changes may

yet be made, but to be certain that all

members have an opportunity to review

the document, I felt it best to put

it into my column.

General interpretation(s):

In accordance with the direction of

the Board and their statement of intent

with regard to Production Division

equipment rules, NROI hereby issues

INSIDE 111R01 continued on page 58.

the following ruling:

-External modifications continue

to be strictly constrained to items

specifically listed below.

-Some specific classes of internal

modifications are now specifically

allowed, but in general internal

modifications remain con-

strained to items specifically listed.

-If a conflict appears to exist between these general statements

and the listed details, the specifics listed in the notes and clarifications

below shall be deemed definitive.

-The burden of responsibility is on the shooter to ensure that

his/her equipment is compliant with these provisions. If a

modification is disputed - either by a Match Official or a competitor,

under 11.1.2 and 11.7 - the competitor may be required

to provide evidence of a specific clause in the rules or

published NROI rulings which specifically authorizes the

modification.

-While the rules are currently silent on a Match Official's authority to disassemble a competitor's equipment, a competitor

may - at any time - be required to prove that the equipment is compli

ant with the equipment rules, up to and including the disassembly of their

equipment to verify compliance and proper function (e.g., the proper operation

of factory safety mechanisms).

-A competitor who cannot demonstrate that his/her equipment is compliant with

these provisions will be moved to Open Division, under 6.2.5.1

Except as specifically modified below, all other clauses in Appendix D4 remain

in effect, along with any applicable NROI rulings. In order to carry binding authority

in competition, an NROI ruling must be published in Front Sight and/or on the USPSA webpage.

Edited November 2, 2015 by grapemeister

[JMike]

You are correct Grape.

" In order to carry binding authority in competition, an NROI ruling must be published in Front Sight and/or on the USPSA web-page."

http://www.uspsa.org/bodminutes/20090307_production_2of3.html

The quote above is taken from a document that is located on the USPSA website in the NROI section. The link to the entire document is also shown above. The document is dated March 7, 2009 and makes a number of changes to Production to include making an extended magazine release legal.

So yeah, as previously discussed, an extended magazine release is legal.

What I don't understand is why, almost seven years after the ruling, it still isn't in the current rule book. Pretty sloppy implementation IMHO.

[grapemeister]

You are correct Grape.

" In order to carry binding authority in competition, an NROI ruling must be published in Front Sight and/or on the USPSA web-page."

http://www.uspsa.org/bodminutes/20090307_production_2of3.html

The quote above is taken from a document that is located on the USPSA website in the NROI section. The link to the entire document is also shown above. The document is dated March 7, 2009 and makes a number of changes to Production to include making an extended magazine release legal.

So yeah, as previously discussed, an extended magazine release is legal.

What I don't understand is why, almost seven years after the ruling, it still isn't in the current rule book. Pretty sloppy implementation IMHO.

I agree. Over the years I've learned and I'm still learning that it's not a purely black and white world, but still, just a little more effort on somebody's part would finally and definitively put this particular matter to rest.

Since your post or just before, I edited my post so it doesn't appear that my personal comments are misunderstood as something I cut and paste from the article. I just rearranged some stuff for clarity.

[grapemeister]

I did some more digging and discovered the board voted to delay the Production rule changes proposed in March 2009 for 30 days. The next time it was voted on again was at an online meeting on June 18, 2009. Production rule changes passed and were to take effect on July 1, 2009.

Looking at the rule changes that were changed/passed its hard for me to tell if the aftermarket extended magazine release was approved. Parts mentioning it were crossed out, high lighted in blue, and some high lighted in red. Anybody know what that means. Maybe crossed out means excluded, included, deleted? What does red and blue high light mean?

Done for now. Off to the range.

[JAFO]

wow, thanks for all the feedback!

From the manufacturer's description it would appear that the release has a larger surface area. I will be swapping it back to OE and hoping it's isolated from the trigger/fire control enough that I don't create any other issues. I won't have time to live fire test before competition.

It should not have any effect on the trigger/fire control. Just make sure you put the trigger bar spring back on correctly if you take it off to do the swap. And DO NOT put the mag catch stop pin back in upside down. That's just a headache nobody wants.

Edited November 2, 2015 by JAFO

[grapemeister]

You are correct Grape.

" In order to carry binding authority in competition, an NROI ruling must be published in Front Sight and/or on the USPSA web-page."

http://www.uspsa.org/bodminutes/20090307_production_2of3.html

The quote above is taken from a document that is located on the USPSA website in the NROI section. The link to the entire document is also shown above. The document is dated March 7, 2009 and makes a number of changes to Production to include making an extended magazine release legal.

So yeah, as previously discussed, an extended magazine release is legal.

What I don't understand is why, almost seven years after the ruling, it still isn't in the current rule book. Pretty sloppy implementation IMHO.

I discovered through some more research the NROI ruling dated 7 Mar 2009 was only a proposal that had not been voted on by the board at the time it was published in Front Sight magazine. Production rules changes were voted on and passed eventually but how do you interpret the PDF document that's included in the board meeting minutes. It appears the part or wording that allowed aftermarket extended magazine releases was crossed out. Maybe an ex or current board member can tell us what that means, and tell us what words or phrases highlighted in red or blue means. It appears to me that aftermarket releases are still not allowed, but I'm just guessing. Besides, where is the official NROI ruling. The one everybody, including me, has been citing had not been voted on when it was published in Front Sight magazine in 2009

Edit to add: The same goes for the "NROI Interpretation for the Production Division Equipment Rules (Appendix D4) under the NROI section at the USPSA website. It is dated 7 March, not a June date when this was voted on by the board. It's my understanding there were revisions made when the board voted on it and the official changes were to take affect July, 1 2009, not March 7, 2009. So the big question for me is how can we go by a document as being official when it's not the one that was voted on by the board, or is it the same? It appears that changes and revisions were made before the final vote.

Edited November 3, 2015 by grapemeister

[grapemeister]

Found this in the Nov/Dec 2009 edition of Front Sight. This was on page 4 under the Inside NROI section by John Amidon. The answer was a response to a question about triggers and Mr. Amidon referenced the July 1, 2009 Production rule changes. Scroll down to the part about magazine releases. I was pretty sure the aftermarket magazine release exception was not passed and I think this may support my interpretation.

ANSWER

It you go to www.uspsa.org and click

on the left link (match rules), when the

page opens, click on Production Rules

revisions July 1, 2009. There is a vast

amount of information, but one of the

changes that replies to your question

is:

"21.6 (cont) Exchange of minor EXTERNAL

components

Sights, firing pins, firing pin retainers,

extractors and ejectors MAY

be replaced with OEM or aftermarket

parts.

Any other components which are

externally visible may ONLY be

replaced with OEM parts which

are offered on the specific model

of gun or another approved

gun from the

same manufacturer

except as specifically

clarified below. Examples

of external

components which

may only be replaced

with OEM parts include

(but are not limited

to): magazine releases,

slide stops,

thumb safeties, and triggers."