Production division discussion part 2

[Onepocket]

Leave production as is. If anything let me undercut the trigger gaurd on this glock. If I lose its between my ears not the guns ability.

Edited August 1, 2015 by Onepocket

[Pinka]

I bet everyone that says cut back on the mods is shooting a M&P or Glock and only wants their trigger mods and guide rods left alone!

It doesn't take a gunsmith or a ton of money to tune a CZ or Tanfo, it's not an arms race, shoot what you like.

Leave it alone, it's working!!!!

[kevin c]

Production works very well just as it is. Yes, the current and past set of rules are compromises (they always have been, it seems), but I'm OK with that. What gets annoying is changing the rules to the point where equipment that was acceptable now is not, or making certain equipment more or less useable or competitive in the division by fiat, so I am not in favor of changing or combining divisions.

I like the ten round restriction in terms of parity (we are setting aside philisophical, legal and constitutional arguments here). I consider reloading another shooting skill to be mastered, and doping out when and where to reload in a field course part of the fun of working out stage tactics. Keeping it at ten rounds also makes it pretty even and legal in most places in the US (NOT every where, I know).

I am a long time Production shooter of Glocks.

Oh, as far as metal guns go, it may be worth remembering that it was just a few years ago that all the people up on the latest techniques and equipment would wag their heads sagely when somebody said that a heavy gun was a big disadvantage as far as transitions was concerned, what with having to sling all that weight around. Lighter then was the key. Opinions are wind: they come and go and change frequently.

And why do I shoot Glocks? They're cheap, reliable, easy for me to mess with to my satisfaction, and, provided I haven't butchered the piece too much, they always outshoot me.

[Southpaw]

Thanks all for your replies. I've seen quite a few posts in various threads recently relating to these types of questions on Production so I became more interested in hearing more opinions on the subject; largely due to the new Carry Optics division since it's based off Production it's yielded more discussion on Production division. I personally find hearing people's thoughts on these sorts of questions interesting, no other ulterior motive for this thread.

For the record, not that my opinion matters at all, I don't support any big changes to the overall divisions like I asked in questions #1. I want Production to stay as its own division. Do I think the rules are perfect as is? No probably not, there are some rules I think could be a bit stricter and some which I think should be loosened. But overall I don't think there's any big problem with Production as is. I never thought a trigger pull limit would actually become a reality, was again just curious if y'all would support it (I think I found the answer to that question ).

I see no one really dove into question #3 (I didn't really think anyone would), but that one sort of drives the whole discussion. After all, if you don't first have a purpose or goals you hope a new division will achieve, how can you draft the rules for it?

[Nik Habicht]

Perhaps no one tackled #3, because now that we're 15-16 years into this production experiment, it seems sort of senseless -- like putting the cart before the horse....

[PKT1106]

IMO, production should be a no modification division. Stock, off the shelf approved guns. Limited is the place for iron sight tinkerers.

Since we are allowing 8-shot minor for revolver, roll it into production.

[Nimitz]

while I'm perfecly happy with production the way it is, I agree completely. Once you allow a single mod how do then justify not allowing other mods? How do you objectly determine which mods are minor and therfore ok and which are not. How do you explain that you can completely change out the factory sights but not make any external trigger mods? Aren't sights & the trigger of equal importance to making accurate shots?

Edited August 1, 2015 by Nimitz

[BritinUSA]

The last time the BOD tried to implement restrictions on existing Production guns, the membership was just a few days away from a full-frontal assault with pitchforks and burning torches. While such discussions are an interesting philosophical diversion, I think I can say with some confidence that such changes are NEVER. GOING. TO. HAPPEN.

[NicVerAZ]

Leave production as it is. If the Big 3 feel their pistols are not competitive, all they have to do is go back to the drawing board and make a competition oriented model based on their common platform.

That's how Grand Power did it: took the K100 platform, added a longer slide with serrations, wider safeties and a lighter trigger. Otherwise, it is the same gun.

Now, imagine Generals Washington, Patton or MacArthur complaining about the superiority of their adversaries and whining that the rules should be changed and geared towards fairness? Instead they trained harder, came with better strategies and brought better gear to the fight.

[PKT1106]

...m I think I can say with some confidence that such changes are NEVER. GOING. TO. HAPPEN.

Lots of people said that about carry optics.

[Southpaw]

Now, imagine Generals Washington, Patton or MacArthur complaining about the superiority of their adversaries and whining that the rules should be changed and geared towards fairness? Instead they trained harder, came with better strategies and brought better gear to the fight.

If George Washington were fighting a war that was to be decided via a USPSA match I'm pretty sure he'd choose to shoot Open

[elguapo]

Well my first thread went more or less how I expected . But it did create some additional questions that I'm interested in hearing everyone's thoughts/opinions on:

1. Do you prefer keeping Production division as its own division or would you support some sort of merger with another division or opening up Production to single action guns? For example, would you rather have something like: a) merge Production with SS, b ) keep them separate, but allow SA in Production, c) merge Production, SS, and L10, 8 major/10 minor, d) eliminate Production and SS, and then split L10 into separate major and minor divisions (because L10 is so popular it needs to become 2 divisions ), e) some other idea (I've run out of wacky ideas).

And for this question I'm not looking to delve into specific rules you'd change in Production, more talking about the overall divisions in USPSA.

2. If you support keeping Production as it is now, why?

3. I thought Chuck's post with the underlying philosophy behind IPSC Production division was interesting (post #29 here: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=219115&page=2). I know we have nothing similar ever written down by the BOD for Production.

So what are your thoughts on what should be the intent/purpose of having a Production division in USPSA? And how do you think having this division benefits USPSA as a whole? If you were tasked with writing a philosophy for USPSA Production, what points would you include?

4. Do you agree with Phil's description of some of the guns currently used in Production as "Limited Minor" guns? Be it the weight, trigger, cost, amount of customization, etc., do you think this sort of characterization has some validity?

ETA: 5. Do you regularly shoot Production?

**I'm not starting this thread to create a big debate and to argue with anyone saying your opinion is wrong. I'm just interested in everyone's thoughts on the subject**

You need to shoot more and post less

[Southpaw]

You need to shoot more and post less

I actually just got home from a match, but thanks for the advice!