Is IPDA anti-.40cal/10mm

[Brent Chambers]

I met a guy named John Sayles (sp?) a few years ago at the Ohio Surefire Match. I didn't know him from Adam and only got to chatting with him after admiring the Wilson .38 Super he was using in ESP. He gave me a story about how they were worried the 10mm was going to become the gamer's caliber in CDP because they felt it offered less recoil at the same pf as the .45 ACP. This is the same story Leatham gave a year or so before at the SSC. Make of that what you will. I was later told Sayles was on the IDPA BoD. Again, he was a pretty warm guy and enjoyable to chat with.

If I'm wrong my apologies- this certainly isn't important enough for me to get defensive about. Hope that clears that statement up, and again, my apologies if I was told incorrectly about this guy having been involved in IDPA leadership. I tend take things like this pretty lightly these days- just chatting for the sake of an informed exchange.

Brent

[Glock2234]

. . . . .  He gave me a story about how they were worried the 10mm was going to become the gamer's caliber in CDP because they felt it offered less recoil at the same pf as the .45 ACP. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The prime directive seems to be the viability of the .45 8+1 CDP guns.

Consider the fuss caused by 8-shot revolvers. If you let 10 mm in CDP, the next thing you know, those 10+1, 14+1, 15+1 self-defense enthusiasts will want to fill their magazines. Whoa!

[jkelly]

Don't think it's gonna change so I don't worry about it. I just go to matches, shoot, SO and scratch my head and wonder why most of this stuff in only discussed on the internet.---Mayonaise

I have not found that to be true in the two matches I've shot this year. There were several times where groups of shooters were discussing the rule changes. Most seemed to be pointing to the flaws in the new rules. Two, a match director and his primary SO, were defending the rule changes.

Interestingly, this is a situation very representative of what we see on the internet. That is: insiders defending HQ, outsiders bemoaning the damage done to them by the rule changes.

And in both cases, simple rule changes/corrections, that would appear to be more fair to the shooters and easier to implement, are dismissed by the insiders.

Respectfully,

jkelly

[Crusher]

Insider.......outsider ..........? most really don't care they are just showing up to shoot.

With that out of the way why can't the CDP division be inclusive of ALL calibers making a 165 PF as minimum (this should include .40, 10mm, 41 AE, 400 corbon, 45 ACP and 45 gap/ possibly 357 sig). Heck it may be possible to even open up to a maj 9 (165 PF) for the guns capable of safely firing maj 9 cartridges.

Level the playing field as far as max mag capacity (I don't think anyone would complain about the existing 8 round mag capacity as max) and watch the CDP division GROW.

In the end isn't that what the ALL shooting sports should try to achieve?

GROWTH!

[dirtypool40]

Crusher, you're new here, so this will just be a warning; DO NOT try to make sense on this topic. Common sense is one of the "specifically prohibited" mods.

[Crusher]

Yes "logic" at times appears to be a "LOST ART" with regard to some subjects. My bad

NOTE TO SELF:

Before reading and posting replies remove 20# sledge from storage shed, raise to an elevation 3' above the top of my skull and release grip on handle. If done properly I belive this will cure me of ALL my logical thoughts.

[tightloop]

Yep, they do...

[JohnRodriguez]

Why are single action 40s&w's (and the 10's) excluded from CDP division if they make the power factor and comply with all other division rules?

Respectfully.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I guess the answer is because those who created the game wanted a division for .45 ACP only after pulling 10mm out. Don't know. Don't care. Don't think it's gonna change so I don't worry about it. I just go to matches, shoot, SO and scratch my head and wonder why most of this stuff in only discussed on the internet.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Does this mean I could shoot my 5" S&W 625 in CDP class, since it is a 45 ACP. Nothing funner than beating a single stake bottom feeder

[JohnRodriguez]

My mistake, I just looked at the CDP rules and #1 rule is must be jam-o-matic. Just have to find another way to use my 5" revo in IDPA. Would it be nice if Bill Wilson could come out and admit that he made a mistake like I just did???

[jkelly]

With that out of the way why can't the CDP division be inclusive of ALL calibers making a 165 PF as minimum (this should include .40, 10mm, 41 AE, 400 corbon, 45 ACP and 45 gap/ possibly 357 sig).---crusher

Crusher,

Ahhhh, Hmmmm, the reasons I've been given are that Mr. Wilson wants CDP to stay 45ACP only, is out or respect for JMB. And, I've been told, that the 1911 is gun that practical shooting was based on (Why they allow other guns in CDP was not explained).

Now I personally think that the rules for CDP (and IDPA in general) are based on other considerations then competition. Mr. Wilson is, after all, a business man and he is unlikely to make rules that could hurt his business (High End Custom 1911s).

While I don't agree with his rules (to be kind), I'm very happy that he has created a place for us to play.

Respectfully,

jkelly

[itento]

John, Like me, the only way we're going to be able to shoot our 5" 625's in IDPA is to get them circumcised to 4.2".

[Duane Thomas]

Interestingly, this is a situation very representative of what we see on the internet. That is: insiders defending HQ, outsiders bemoaning the damage done to them by the rule changes.

It's not quite that simple. For instance, I know that because I make my living as a gunwriter, some people consider me an "industry insider." And in some ways I am. However, this is not one of them. The sum total of my contact and interaction with Bill Wilson has been talking with him on the phone once - and that in the course of doing research for an article - about seven years ago. Other than that, I shoot IDPA matches. Was I upset by the new holster/mag pouch rules? Or the new weight limit in SSP? No. But that has nothing to do with my being an "insider" and everything to do with the fact I've always shot IDPA with my daily carry gun and gear. Strangely enough, all the gear (gun, belt, holster, mag pouch) chosen expressly for everyday concealed carry, is still legal.

[jkelly]

Duane,

My statement about IDPA/Gun Industry insiders and outsiders view the same rule changes is based on what I’ve seen both on the Internet and at the two shoots (actually three) I’ve been to this year.

The statement is a generalization, and an accurate one at that, of how people in different segments of the IDPA sport viewed the rule changes. Does that mean that it was a 100% accurate predictor of ones views, no.

What it really is, is a statement on human nature and how we see things based on their effect on us, as viewed from our position relative to the event.

You’re an industry insider, you carry a Wilson Combat 1911, these rule changes do not adversely effect do you. You have advocated, through out the rules discussions, for the changes as they exist (I think).

Do I think you are biased with regard to the rule changes given your position and lack of damage by them? Yes, but I think we BOTH are. Is this an attack on your integrity? Absolutely NOT!

Duane, I’ll attack your statements, your logic and your beliefs. I’ll qualify what you say as seen through my biased eyes, I’ll point out errors, and I’ll slam any condescending tones I detect in you. This is as I would do “for” anyone on the Internet. I would expect no less from you. However, I will not attack you personally (sometimes there is a very thin line between ones beliefs and oneself).

Respectfully,

jkelly

[Crusher]

Hey Itento, what heads did you wind up testing?

The 135's or the 180's or both. I use MG 180 JHP for a maj load in USPSA and like the 135's for minor as they closely replicate the slide speed and velocity of the 180 maj loads (on swingers, spinners and movers there is no timing adjustments).

[itento]

Crusher, Never got around to the 135's. I loaded some MT Gold 180gr FMJ with 3.5 gr of Titegroup but couldn't get them chronographed due to weather but they shot a much closer group that the 4.7gr Major loads. On Sunday we had a local man on man plate match anbd I used the 3.5 gr loads and came in second. When we get some sun, I probably try the 135's though I happy with the light 180's .

[dirtypool40]

Strangely enough, all the gear (gun, belt, holster, mag pouch) chosen expressly for everyday concealed carry, is still legal. - Duane Thomas

ROFLMAO

yeah, maybe YOUR carry gear, Duane, but what about the rest of us?

Please don't start preaching that IDPA is for REAL WORLD carry gear. At our local matches it's a tactical fashion show. It's almost like you get issued a G34, cut down kydex, GLock Polo, hi-viz sites, Thunder Ranch hat, Oakleys, 511 shorts and "Photo" vest when your application clears to become "one of the guys".

Ever see anyone like that on the street?

To quote Marissa Tomei as Mona Lisa Vito - "Oh yeah, you blend."

[MikeyG23]

Not that I'm world class or anything close but I've been shooting my STI .40 and near major loads for the past couple of months and haven't noted any difference in my scores. Before that I was shooting a Trojan in 9mm which is about as wimpy as you can get.

Is IDPA "anti" .40 / 10mm ?

No, but they don't make it advantageous either. I still think caliber based power factors have some merit. But then I'm a rebel

[revchuck]

dirtypool40 wrote:

Please don't start preaching that IDPA is for REAL WORLD carry gear. At our local matches it's a tactical fashion show. It's almost like you get issued a G34, cut down kydex, GLock Polo, hi-viz sites, Thunder Ranch hat, Oakleys, 511 shorts and "Photo" vest when your application clears to become "one of the guys".

Ever see anyone like that on the street?

Nope, that's local fashion. Take away the TR hat and the vest and you're at a USPSA match.

Where I shoot, it's common practice to arrive, get out of your vehicle, clear and re-holster your weapon, and amble on over to sign up. No special vests, no Oakleys, and the Glocks are usually 19s or 23s. It just depends on where you are and the folks you shoot with.

[dirtypool40]

Chuck, I'm glad that somewhere IDPA is shot with carry guns, but I disagree about USPSA; I see much more variety in what the regular shooters wear and use than at IDPA. Much less pressure to be "tactically correct".

I shot the Sunshine State Games a couple of years back with my real carry gear, wearing a Hawian Shirt and sandles, and you'da thunk I went looking for a fight.

[Ted Murphy]

We get guys who show up and shoot with what they brung. I do most the time, with the exception of a few matches I have to get up too darn early for, then I throw something into a pocket and run like heck to try and beat the signup deadline.

Shot IDPA in NJ sunday, and I had to tell myself twice to case the guns before leaving. Once I got as far as the driveway before remembering.

I usually change out the leather at the range for kydex, depends. Hate getting cast bullet funk and other dirt in the leather. I know that's silly, but for some reason it bugs me.

Ted

[Duane Thomas]

you carry a Wilson Combat 1911

Actually, I did carry a Wilson 1911. Then I carried a Les Baer 1911, and these days I carry a Glock. But even when I did carry a Wilson 1911, that had nothing to do with my opinions on the IDPA Rule Book.

You have advocated, through out the rules discussions, for the changes as they exist (I think).

I would say that's true as far as it goes. I do have my problems with the new Rule Book - actually, I've had problems with every iteration of the IDPA Rule Book - but they're minor and my mental energy has been taken up addressing other people's concerns instead of my own. And I have to say, my reaction to even the things I wish were different in the Rule Book is tempered by the fact that I can understand why they were done that way.

Do I think you are biased with regard to the rule changes given your position and lack of damage by them?

I honestly believe my position has nothing to do with my opinions, that I'd feel the same way if I was Duane Thomas, Joe Average IDPA Shooter instead of Duane Thomas, Gunwriter. But then I'll never really know, I guess. Would I probably be less sanguine about the rule changes if they'd outlawed the gun, or holster, or mag pouch I carry every day? Oh yeah. Do I think the fact I chose all those pieces of equipment for everyday concealed carry instead of for a competitive advantage has anything to do with the fact they're still legal? Oh yeah. I do feel for the people who have pieces of equipment they honestly wear on a daily basis that are no longer legal.

Yes, but I think we BOTH are. Is this an attack on your integrity? Absolutely NOT!

And I appreciate that. I truly do.

Duane, I’ll attack your statements, your logic and your beliefs. I’ll qualify what you say as seen through my biased eyes, I’ll point out errors, and I’ll slam any condescending tones I detect in you. This is as I would do “for” anyone on the Internet. I would expect no less from you. However, I will not attack you personally (sometimes there is a very thin line between ones beliefs and oneself).

And please do attack my statements, logic and beliefs. (And I will respond with the civility level for which www.brianenos.com has become famous.) If they can't stand up to it, then obviously they're not very well-reasoned. God knows I can be wrong, and I appreciate it when that's pointed out. (Witness the 2-into-21-Wilson-guns phenomenon - which is still bugging the hell out of me, by the way). The only other thing that I might say here is please be careful about imputing condescension to my or anyone else's opinions. Like you said, sometimes there can be a very thin line between ones beliefs and oneself. The fact I - or anyone else - believe something different than another person does not necessarily mean I - or anyone else - is being condescending toward them.

[Duane Thomas]

Please don't start preaching that IDPA is for REAL WORLD carry gear. At our local matches it's a tactical fashion show. It's almost like you get issued a G34, cut down kydex, GLock Polo, hi-viz sites, Thunder Ranch hat, Oakleys, 511 shorts and "Photo" vest when your application clears to become "one of the guys".

DAMN!!! And I missed the issue?

[revchuck]

Please don't start preaching that IDPA is for REAL WORLD carry gear. At our local matches it's a tactical fashion show. It's almost like you get issued a G34, cut down kydex, GLock Polo, hi-viz sites, Thunder Ranch hat, Oakleys, 511 shorts and "Photo" vest when your application clears to become "one of the guys".

DAMN!!! And I missed the issue?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You got a partial issue - you've got the Glunk and kydex, right? Quit yer fussin'.

[Duane Thomas]

LOL! Good one.

[Flexmoney]

Looks like this one has run it's course as well.

Lets get back to talking about shooting...which is what this forum is all about.

CLOSED