Major Matches

[Rokihsa]

Why has USPSA not organized major match dates a little better? How do we have GA state, Area 8 and Area 5 all the same weekend?

[atbarr]

Why has USPSA not organized major match dates a little better? How do we have GA state, Area 8 and Area 5 all the same weekend?

Why do you think they can do that? They can't even organize Headquarters.

Why don't you post your question here uspsa.org?

[ChuckS]

You will probably be seeing a bunch of sarcastic comments about USPSA managing things but the truth is that in most of the country, there is a shooting season. That means a finite number of weekends with acceptable weather. Rule out Memorial Day, Independence Day and Labor Day weekends (family stuff) and the list gets pretty short. That, combined with the schedules of the ranges that can handle major matches, it gets very difficult to find a unique weekend for each match.

Later,

Chuck

PS: Trying to avoid the school year can add to the schedule compression...

[Chuck Anderson]

It gets even worse when you factor in dates from other disciplines. 3 Gun, IDPA, Bianchi, Precision Rifle etc. there are well over 100 major matches in the country. They are bound to conflict. Has to happen. Having three majors in three different areas is not bad.

[Rokihsa]

I have been running this through my mind for about 3 weeks now and do not understand the "Limited" weekend thing.

52 Weekends in a year x 8 areas = 6.5 weekends per area

If you divide the country in half and assign the same blocks to each section (North Atlantic/Pacific, South Atlantic/Pacific) then it comes out to be 13 weekends per year.

You could assign the earlier/later months to the Southern States (Florida, Cali etc.) and the summer months to the Northern ones. This would allow for the Area Coordinators to divide them out and let the State matches know what weekends are available for them and the Area matches to not overlap. You could also take away 1 weekend per Area and allow 4 weeks for Nationals (or even a East/West coast championship). This would allow for more traveling participation, allow for sponsors to recover the cost of the matches and give the shooters a chance to attend more major matches.

Even if you took half the year away due to weather, you are left with 26 weekends out of the year.

I know the problems of finding range time open and weather concerns, but it seems like it should be a little more organized, you know like what USPSA HQ is supposed to be doing. It just seems to a problem that would be a ton easier to fix.

[Rokihsa]

It gets even worse when you factor in dates from other disciplines. 3 Gun, IDPA, Bianchi, Precision Rifle etc. there are well over 100 major matches in the country. They are bound to conflict. Has to happen. Having three majors in three different areas is not bad.

I agree with you on having multiple disciplines overlapping but there are more than enough weekends that USPSA should never overlap.

[Rokihsa]

Why has USPSA not organized major match dates a little better? How do we have GA state, Area 8 and Area 5 all the same weekend?

Why do you think they can do that? They can't even organize Headquarters.

Why don't you post your question here uspsa.org?

I am asking for advice from the people who shoot, not the ones who have the system running the direction it is.

[Corey]

You could run for some sort of USPSA office position and then change things from the inside?

[PKT1106]

You could do it by geographic location timed with the seasons. Warmer climates take the winter months and colder climates the summer with a mixing the spring and fall.

Of course, you need to have every range with a major coordinate with other clubs as well as the other disciplines at their own clubs. It can be done, but it is a lot of effort for a subjective amount of payoff.

[Codycoyote]

What makes you thing USPSA can organize, or dictate when a match can be held? They don't own the ranges, they don't provide any support, whether finacial or physical, to the ranges or matches. USPSA is simply the rules making body and keepers of the scores. While it would be nice to have every area match, every sectional and every state match on seperate weekends, that just will never happen. If two Area matches overlap, you just have to decide which you want to shoot.

You list that we could break up every weekend and have 52 matches, but what about the local matches? Every major match needs RO's, CRO's, RM and a MD. If you setup a Major to conflict with the local matches in the region, who will work the matches? Also, some ranges actually work together to share equipment for major matches. Do you strip the local match of it's props for the major match? or do you schedule it so that the Major coinsides with the local schedule to avoid that? It's not as cut and dry as your math makes it seem.

[Rokihsa]

You could run for some sort of USPSA office position and then change things from the inside?

This seems to be the typical reply when someone wants to make change. I am new to the sport (less than 2 years) and would like to bring this idea up to the people who are long term shooters. Wouldn't it be nice to plan your year out, every year because you know what matches are going to be shot?

[Rokihsa]

What makes you thing USPSA can organize, or dictate when a match can be held? They don't own the ranges, they don't provide any support, whether finacial or physical, to the ranges or matches. USPSA is simply the rules making body and keepers of the scores. While it would be nice to have every area match, every sectional and every state match on seperate weekends, that just will never happen. If two Area matches overlap, you just have to decide which you want to shoot.

You list that we could break up every weekend and have 52 matches, but what about the local matches? Every major match needs RO's, CRO's, RM and a MD. If you setup a Major to conflict with the local matches in the region, who will work the matches? Also, some ranges actually work together to share equipment for major matches. Do you strip the local match of it's props for the major match? or do you schedule it so that the Major coinsides with the local schedule to avoid that? It's not as cut and dry as your math makes it seem.

If I am correct (again limited experience) doesn't everything you just stated already happen? The local matches donate props to the major matches held at that range ( we have 2 ranges donate to the major match) and the range is closed for that match weekend? Wouldn't the RO, CRO RM and MD still come from the local pool already? It seems like it would be easier to get ROs, and CROs if the matches were better spread out.

[motosapiens]

Wouldn't it be nice to plan your year out, every year because you know what matches are going to be shot?

I already do that. I think the number of people that want to shoot EVERY area match is pretty small. I'm pretty happy that I can do a national match, my area match and the state and sectionals that are local to me with no conflict. That's a lot more important to me than an area match somewhere else.

I also think it's totally unrealistic to pretend that there are 52 weekends available for shooting major matches. Before april and after mid-octoberthere you run into problems finding enough daylight to put on a major match on a normal schedule.

[Codycoyote]

What makes you thing USPSA can organize, or dictate when a match can be held? They don't own the ranges, they don't provide any support, whether finacial or physical, to the ranges or matches. USPSA is simply the rules making body and keepers of the scores. While it would be nice to have every area match, every sectional and every state match on seperate weekends, that just will never happen. If two Area matches overlap, you just have to decide which you want to shoot.

You list that we could break up every weekend and have 52 matches, but what about the local matches? Every major match needs RO's, CRO's, RM and a MD. If you setup a Major to conflict with the local matches in the region, who will work the matches? Also, some ranges actually work together to share equipment for major matches. Do you strip the local match of it's props for the major match? or do you schedule it so that the Major coinsides with the local schedule to avoid that? It's not as cut and dry as your math makes it seem.

If I am correct (again limited experience) doesn't everything you just stated already happen? The local matches donate props to the major matches held at that range ( we have 2 ranges donate to the major match) and the range is closed for that match weekend? Wouldn't the RO, CRO RM and MD still come from the local pool already? It seems like it would be easier to get ROs, and CROs if the matches were better spread out.

I'll take my locale as an example. In the Chicagoland area, we have a match within 1 hours drive every sunday. My home range is 2nd sunday. If we hold a major on the third sunday, we will have our RO's, and the 2 CRO's, a MD , but no RM. The RO's, CRO's, possible RM from the range that hold their locals 3rd sunday may not be available to help out. In order to assure ample help, we have to hold our Major match on our weekend. that will allow for our staff, plus the staff of 3 other clubs to be able to help. So we have 1 out of four weekends a month to hold said major. we have a 6-7 month season. that allows us only 6-7 weekends to hold a major each year. Now, if you add in the a sectional, State, Area, Nationals, Etc, you have only so many weekends that actually work.

I would actually love to have a major match every weekend somewhere. I just know that it can't happen. The logistics aren't there. So talk to your shooting friends, find out which match has a reputaion of great stages and great staff and pick that match. thats how I decide.

[Rokihsa]

that allows us only 6-7 weekends to hold a major each year. Now, if you add in the a sectional, State, Area, Nationals, Etc, you have only so many weekends that actually work.

I would actually love to have a major match every weekend somewhere. I just know that it can't happen. The logistics aren't there. So talk to your shooting friends, find out which match has a reputaion of great stages and great staff and pick that match. thats how I decide.

6-7 weekends a year would fall into the window I was talking about in my first couple of posts. I dont think it would even be fun to shoot a Major match every weekend, but once a quarter would be nice to get into one and the travel funds would be spread out a little more even. You stated that you find out what matches have a reputation for great stages and pick that one. How do you decide when to matches with great stages are the same weekend? For example Georgia State has an awesome setup, great people and stages but Area 8 is the same weekend with the same reputation. How do you attend both?

BTW this started out as a simple question and not a witch hunt.

Edited May 12, 2015 by Rokihsa

[Rokihsa]

What makes you thing USPSA can organize, or dictate when a match can be held? They don't own the ranges, they don't provide any support, whether finacial or physical, to the ranges or matches. USPSA is simply the rules making body and keepers of the scores.

The fact that these are USPSA sanctioned matches and have to be reviewed and approved by the Area Coordinator before they are held. If they are not approved then it would be an Outlaw match, correct?

[Racinready300ex]

I think you make it out to be a lot simpler than it is. What would happen if the section coordinator told a club they can have the Area match one of these 6 weekends. And the club couldn't do it those weekends? No Area match this year? Some clubs will only have a few weekends they pull something like that off. Keep in mind that some of these matches may close down a club to it's membership for a week or more with setup / teardown and the match itself.

I think if USPSA gave clubs a window of a few weeks that they could have the match it would probably just reduce the number of majors.

[Codycoyote]

that allows us only 6-7 weekends to hold a major each year. Now, if you add in the a sectional, State, Area, Nationals, Etc, you have only so many weekends that actually work.

I would actually love to have a major match every weekend somewhere. I just know that it can't happen. The logistics aren't there. So talk to your shooting friends, find out which match has a reputaion of great stages and great staff and pick that match. thats how I decide.

6-7 weekends a year would fall into the window I was talking about in my first couple of posts. I dont think it would even be fun to shoot a Major match every weekend, but once a quarter would be nice to get into one and the travel funds would be spread out a little more even. You stated that you find out what matches have a reputation for great stages and pick that one. How do you decide when to matches with great stages are the same weekend? For example Georgia State has an awesome setup, great people and stages but Area 8 is the same weekend with the same reputation. How do you attend both?

BTW this started out as a simple question and not a witch hunt.

Didn't think it was a witch hunt, sorry if I came across that way. you aren't the first person to ask this question. In fact one of my shooting buddies wanted to shoot A8, then saw A5 was the same weekend. Its a tough choice. He decided to shoot A5 since it's our home area. It is possible to shoot both. Pick a thursday or friday shoot date for one, hop a plane to the other, then shoot sat/sun. It's not ideal, but thats how the Pro's do it. I have seen Vogel and a couple others make 3 matches in one long weekend.

the 6-7 weekends is a basic list. We cancelled last weekend due to Mothers day and rain. We don't cancel because of weather very often for locals, but after 5 days of rain, the range was spongy to say the least. If the Area's could at least seperate their matches and not conflist that would be nice, but it can't be forced. If A8 or A5 see lower shooter numbers then usual, then maybe they will not do that again. If the GA sectional has a higher turn out then either A5 or A* then I bet the MD's will make sure not to overlap again. With 30,000+ members, there will always be people to shoot matches no matter how many other matches are going on at the same time.

You asked which one I would choose, and I chose A5. If my wife and son weren't taking a trip to FL in June, I would have chosen A8 and made a family vacation around it. Visit family and visit DC. Next year, I may change.

[ChuckS]

What makes you thing USPSA can organize, or dictate when a match can be held? They don't own the ranges, they don't provide any support, whether finacial or physical, to the ranges or matches. USPSA is simply the rules making body and keepers of the scores.

The fact that these are USPSA sanctioned matches and have to be reviewed and approved by the Area Coordinator before they are held. If they are not approved then it would be an Outlaw match, correct?

The approval by NROI and AD only extends to COFs and rule conformance for a Level 2 or 3 match. Where and when is only under USPSA for the Nationals...

[Codycoyote]

What makes you thing USPSA can organize, or dictate when a match can be held? They don't own the ranges, they don't provide any support, whether finacial or physical, to the ranges or matches. USPSA is simply the rules making body and keepers of the scores.

The fact that these are USPSA sanctioned matches and have to be reviewed and approved by the Area Coordinator before they are held. If they are not approved then it would be an Outlaw match, correct?

USPSA,(AD and NROI), sanctions the match by making sure all the stages are legal within USPSA rules. If not approved, the stages must be changed to conform or become an outlaw match. USPSA as an organization does not support/manage major matches. By support I mean fund, supply, run or any of that. They simply approve your stages, allow self-squadding on the website, stuff like that. It's the ranges choice of Date, time, # of shooters, yada yada yada. If USPSA wants to dictate what weekends Majors can be held on, then they would need to be able to supply everything a club/MD needs to run that match. I know as a former MD for local matches, that I wouldn't be dictated to by an organization that provides nothing to me or my club finacially or physically. Most MD/Clubs would feel the same way.

[Rokihsa]

This is an argument that people seem to forget. Just like NRA, USPSA is an organization made up of its members and represented by the elected officials. If you are using USPSA match funds, entry fees, have USPSA members running your matches and are a USPSA club then you should abide by USPSA policies correct? How much money would your club take in if there was not a monthly USPSA match? Does this cover the cost of running a monthly match? The "organization" only dictates the policies the members want, or they (the leadership) get replaced.

As for USPSA providing your club nothing, then why are clubs members of USPSA? Why not just run outlaw matches?

I think this can be answered by looking at what they do provide. They provide a ruling body of elected members in a framework that dictates rules and policies. This allows competition in a organized structure so all competitors compete on the same level.

[Codycoyote]

This is an argument that people seem to forget. Just like NRA, USPSA is an organization made up of its members and represented by the elected officials. If you are using USPSA match funds, entry fees, have USPSA members running your matches and are a USPSA club then you should abide by USPSA policies correct? How much money would your club take in if there was not a monthly USPSA match? Does this cover the cost of running a monthly match? The "organization" only dictates the policies the members want, or they (the leadership) get replaced.

As for USPSA providing your club nothing, then why are clubs members of USPSA? Why not just run outlaw matches?

I think this can be answered by looking at what they do provide. They provide a ruling body of elected members in a framework that dictates rules and policies. This allows competition in a organized structure so all competitors compete on the same level.

You misunderstand. We are discussing USPSA dictating when Major matches can/will be held. I'm fine with USPSA providing what it does to clubs now. Not looking for any more. However, if USPSA were to say, "you can only hold your major match on the weekend of July 11, 2015". Well, then They need to figure a way to support the match. Clubs have members that aren't USPSA members. Clubs have Board of Directors. Those people decide when a Major match can be held and a club.

At one time, our Club wasn't a USPSA club. We held outlaw matches. We made good money then too. USPSA offers many good things for it's members. Clubs Benifit from being affiliated, And USPSA benifits from the mebers those clubs bring in. It's a balance. lets not tip the balance beam.

[Corey]

How did we get to elected officials and rules/policies? The original question doesn't have anything to do with that. The issue is scheduling and USPSA HQ doesn't do any scheduling other than Nationals (as far as I'm aware). The Sectionals and Area matches are fit into the host club's schedule when and where they can. Here in IN, they try to spread out the Sectional match every year or at least every other year. Lets other clubs host it and earn $ as well as bring people to their club. For a couple years it was in the North end of the state and I had a 45 min drive. Last year it was 4+ hour drive for me but 10 min for others. As mentioned above, depending on when that host club normally shoots may dictate when the range can actually host it. There are too many matches being held around the country for everyone to coordinate with each other. Some do and that's great, but you cant expect every SC to talk to each other and be able to schedule out so no one interferes with another match. Its just not feasible. If you think it is, then I resort to my previous statement of volunteer to be a section coordinator for one year and try to run the state match wherever you live. Its hard enough to run a local monthly match, let alone something that big. I

[Racinready300ex]

The club I am a member of holds IDPA, Cowboy action, Benchrest (short and long range), and highpower matches. There are also classes that use the ranges. We are now looking to get started with USPSA matches too. And keep in mind we have hundreds of member who don't shoot any of those things and want access to the range. None of our BOD shoot USPSA, so if USPSA wants to tell us what date we can have a state match, most likely it will interfere with something and we will never have one.

You could always run this by your Area director, section coordinator or one of the match directors for the matches in question. I bet they can give you some reasons why they had to use those dates.

[Rokihsa]

What I don't understand is how we as humans resort to the most definitive examples we can. My example of an Area coordinator having 13 weeks out of the year to coordinate between has been to reduced to "OMG the sky is falling and we can only have a match on July 11th!!!!OMGOMGOMG" I proposed an idea of the sections having 1/4 of the year to coordinate a major match and you guys are saying it is impossible? Let me break it down for you. Area 2, 4 &6 would have February, March, and April, Area 1,3 and 7 would have May, June, July and August and 5&8 could have September - November. Working out the dates would be between them and would force some communication on what weekends are available but it could work. Area Coordinators could then also look at State matches in those same windows and advised their guys on the best weekends to run them.

Corey - "Its just not feasible. If you think it is, then I resort to my previous statement of volunteer to be a section coordinator for one year and try to run the state match wherever you live."

​What do you think is more likely to happen, getting the idea out to our 30,000 members who will then ask all of the coordinators about it, or becoming a COG in the wheel who will have no say at all in the dates. I think you are confusing me for someone who does not know how to run major matches and has not volunteered time at it. The fact that I have only been a USPSA member for two years and can see the issues should testify to the problem.

Edited May 12, 2015 by Rokihsa