Grip Fundamentals

[Burt]

I am using a right handed Weaver stance with a left thumb over right thumb grip.  This grip was taught to me by a self defense instructor and has cured the problem of my gun hand jumping out of my support hand.   As I am very far sighted, the Weaver brings the gun closer to my face, creating fuzzy sights but sharp target.  

After reading numerous posts from this and other shooting sports boards I’ve come to realize that this may not be the most appropriate grip/stance for IPSC, IDPA and other action shooting sports.

With that in mind, I would like to have opinions from members on a grip that is considered to be appropriate for IPSC and, hopefully,  one that will keep my hands together as a solid unit.

[Flexmoney]

Burt,

http://www.mattburkett.com/1.html

I hope this link works.  If not, goto MattBurkett.com, click on "Shooting Tips", then "Grip and Stance"

That should get you real close, real fast.

Then present the gun and dry-fire until it is second nature.

Worked for me.

[talon]

I thought Brian had the best grip, stance, etc. posts  however I don't know the link or correct search parameters.  I printed them off and put them in my notebook and plan to laminate.  Actually Matt asked Brian to post on GlockTalk re the stance.  That was when I first learned about index.  My advice is to read everyting on this site till you run across it.  Especially the npa posts.

Hopefully someone will provide the right links.

[Flexmoney]

Talon,

I think that what you are talking about can be found on Brian's main site...under "words".  I think it has been covered on the forum's, but (like you said) is hard to find.

Here is the link to that page:

http://www.brianenos.com/pages/words.html

This is a lot of info to get to soak in.  Burkett's info might be an easier first time read.

[Singlestack]

Burkett's book is a good read for a BEginner as well. Soak up Burkett's stuff then move up to BE's stuff. BE's book would have been over my head when I first started (some of it still is).

[38supPat]

What are you trying to say?

Pat

[38supPat]

Well I know Brians answer/post will be more detailed but I'll explain what the grip is to me.

Firstly, the grip is really nothing more than holding the pistol in a fashion that it can be fired. That's it. Some shooters try to make it to complicated. All you want to do is hold it so that it can be aimed and fired at a target. How you accomplish this can vary quite a bit. Obviously there can be certain advantages gained by proper technique, but don't forget the basic idea of just holding the gun.

There are some key points that should be followed, these will allow you to avoid disturbing the aim of the pistol and help in returning it to target.

With your strong hand, grip the pistol as high as is comfortably possible. Avoid 'cramming' it up into the beavertail or trigger guard. By this I mean you should not feel excessive pressure on the web of the hand from the beavertail, or on the middle finger should not be 'pinched' by the other fingers against the trigger guard, they should be snugged up against it but without undue pressure. This will cause an inconsistant pressure point and disrupt the tracking of the sights. Grip pressure should be mostly front and back with the fingers pulling the grip of the pistol directly back into the palm between the web and the heel. The thumb and forefinger should not be in contact with the frame at any time. This keeps the finger free to move on the trigger, and as far as the thumb goes, it can contact the safety (on a 1911 design), as long as it does not put pressure on it, or 'float' off to the side (on other designs) leaving the side of the pistol open to accept the support hand. If you are shooting single handed, it may rest above the safety (not on the slide) or below, depending on what is comfortable, but again should not apply any pressure against the frame.

The support hand contacts the frame as high as possible, for me the heel of the support thumb rides right below the safety, or as close to level with the top of the frame as possible on non-1911's. This forms a shelf for my strong hand thumb to rest on. Grip pressure is side to side, or the fingers are pulling into the palm of the support hand. And again the fingers snug up against the trigger guard but do not put excessive pressure against it. A key I noticed this year was that the gun tracks better for me if the support hand index finger contacts the trigger guard on the muscle beween the second and third joint (counting back from the tip). This, for me, gives more consistant pressure and hence predictable tracking of the sights. Major key point here is do not allow the support thumb to put ANY pressure against the frame (or slide )It can touch, in the case of a scope mounted pistol or a limited gun with a wide dustcover, but do not put any pressure inward to the frame. If you have a thumb ledge, dremel it off. This is one of the biggest causes of bad tracking I commonly see.

As far as how much grip tension to use, use what is needed. Nothing more, nothing less. I have noticed on high speed close stages (which these days is pretty common) I will use more grip strength than on longer range targets. This appears to be a result of willing the gun to stay level on fast shots, while accepting a more 'relaxed' hold where greater accuracy is required. On a well designed stage (with a variety of targets) my grip tension will constantly change depending on what I see.

Next time you are dryfiring, try this:  Adopt you grip on the pistol and extend it to the target. Now, while watching the sights, increase your grip tension in your support hand only, slowly at first, now relax it. What did you see, did the sights move? If it did, it points to an inconsistency in your grip. The worst that should happen is that once your grip gets 'too' tight, the sights will shake. When you relax they will settle down.

Now repeat this with your strong hand, again you should not see any movement other than the sights starting to 'shake'.  If the sights do not move when increasing the tension slowly, try upping the pressure quickly and see what happens.

Optical sights or laser sights are a good training aid here. They tend to make it easier to notice any changes. Even one of those cheap laser pointers taped to the side or bottom of your frame will do in a pinch, just line it up on a target and watch what happens as you experiment with your grip.

You will also notice that this will teach you to pay attention to your sights and adapt to what they are telling you. If your sights are not tracking straight, there is a reason, and its usually found in the grip.

Pat

(Edited by Pat Harrison at 4:48 pm on Nov. 21, 2001)

[Flexmoney]

Pat...I am going to have to come back and read your post.

Glad your feeling better (it shows).

[38supPat]

Lol..thanks, that and with the season winding down I have more time to be introspective, think about the past season, lessons learned, and plan for next year

Pat

[TravisT]

(Edited by TravisT at 6:51 pm on June 10, 2002)

[38supPat]

Thanks TT, yes all the above is directed toward speed and efficient return of the sights, to be honest you can hold the gun just about any way, as long as you watch the sights and press the trigger cleanly, and still shoot accurately.

I have to trim my safeties down alot too, actually Ed Browns Tactical size safeties work better for me or the thin Wilsons. But if I get the full size like the ones that came on my SVI, I have to do a fair bit of grinding to make them comfortable.

Unfortunatly the wide body frames make it tougher for smaller handed people to get their support hand fingers located under the trigger guard the way I like, (mine aren't that big either, but fit SVI frames pretty good) single stacks are much easier and can be modified to fit if nessessary. Widebodies are limited in how much they can be reduced.

Pat

[bird]

wow,

Thanks Brian, Pat and Travis...

Your replys' have really helped me think about the grip in a new way.

This is what I discovered while shooting the other day:

*  My LH and RH heels are together at the rear of the pistol, LH does cant down as Matt Burkett taught me in July.

*  My knuckles point forward

* My LH and RH cradle the pistol with equal pressure all the way around, kindof like a 360 grip.

*  I make sure my trigger finger can move on its own without the rest of my hands moving.. (I try to touch the middle of my hand with my index finger, a visual reference that I have).

I shot well.

Am I on the right track??

Thanks for any tips you can throw my way.

PS.

I am not shooting a 1911 BTW (I am saving for a SV though).

I am shooting the HK

USP .45

MK23

P7M8

(Edited by bird at 8:42 pm on Nov. 22, 2001)

[38supPat]

Sounds good to me! I like how you noticed the equal tension in both Hands. I too keep equal grip strength in each hand. I've never really been able to 'get' the 60/40 split  idea. Its like rubbing your head and patting your stomach (or is that the other way around?...lol) Its tough to do because our bodies don't work like that. the left tends to mimic the right and visa-versa,  to grip more with one hand complicates things for me, I let my body sort it out and I get equal pressure.

Pat

[benos]

You guys got a lot of good stuff going on here. In addition to the "NPA grip checks" in the NPA post on the Tips forum, one of the concepts that has helped me the most is to think of your grip as "one thing" that only exists in the HANDS. Just hold out one of your hands and grip it tightly without gripping anything. Really, this is all your hands can do. Regardless of the angle your wrists need to be at in order for the gun to point at the target, all your hands can do is squeeze your fingers together. The problem comes in when this gripping force continues from the hands on down in to the wrists and into the arms. Now I know, from a physiological standpoint, this makes no sense because your grip originates from the contraction of muscles in your forearm.  But that is why I'm saying it in this manner. Even though technically, you grip with your forearm, it helps to learn to feel the actual force of the grip in the hands only.

Now as far as each individual hand goes, the strong hand should be squeezing front to rear only. As already stated, your fingers should squeeze the grip straight back into the web of your hand. I've noticed that recently my strong thumb has been cranking down on the safety more than it used to, and I don't feel this helps at all to keep the gun tracking consistently. I do, however, feel that applying a kind of a pinching action on the grip safety with the base of the thumb and index finger assists to set the gun securely in the web of the hand. I only do this pinching thing on speed oriented shooting - I don't use it on more difficult shots. I'm still experimenting on this one.

On the weak hand, it is as high as possible on the gun as described in other posts. I even lift my (strong) thumb of the safety as my weak hand is coming on to the grip so my weak hand can get as high as possible. I'm not sure this is necessary, however, but I've been doing it for so long I'm not sure if it's worth experimenting with. The weak hand only squeezes in the direction it can, which is pinching the fingers toward the base of the thumb area.

It is important to understand that the hands don't "do anything" to each other. Each hand does what it can do as far as gripping, and that's it. Now the bases of my thumbs do, however, contact each other firmly, but this only the result of their physical position on the grip in relation to each other. As soon as we initiate some sort of interaction between each individual hand, we have the origin of tracking problems.

Back to the "only in the hands thing" - the combined feeling of both hand's pressure produces a feeling you can remember. Even though  both hands are squeezing in essentially opposite directions, we can remember how the grip feels as one unit after we direct ourselves to feel it in this way. Really, the problem causing area produced by not feeling the grip in the hands only is because of excess tension that creeps into our arms. This is usually aggravated by stress. When this happens, (gripping with the entire arm), the gun usually feels like it's battering us, instead of tracking smoothly. This is because when the arms tense up, our gripping strength actually decreases. Combine that with the rigidness in over tense arms and the gun beats us to death.

And the reason I use the word "feeling" often is because it's easier to reproduce, especially under stress, a feeling we have specifically remembered. When we don't think, we usually perform better.

I'm sure I'll thing of more later, but for now it's time for some "Chicken." The band that is. Well, maybe both, the wings at Long Wongs are the best....

be

[Bill Schwab]

For those of us with ingrained grip problems what would you say is the best course of action?  

I've been dry-firing for weeks trying to eliminate the gap between my hands on the left rear side of the gun, and also trying to cam the left hand more, but I always revert back to my old grip subconsciously.  I've thought about not shooting a match all winter and just working on my grip through dry-firing and conscious live fire, but that would suck.

I have also been trying to incorporate some pressure on the bottom of the trigger guard with my left forefinger.  Maybe I'm trying to incorporate too many things at once?  Help!

Bill

(Edited by Bill Schwab at 4:34 pm on Nov. 26, 2001)

[TravisT]

(Edited by TravisT at 6:52 pm on June 10, 2002)

[benos]

Bill,

Ditto on TT's post. Also, break your grip re-training sessions into as many segments as possible, throughout the day. I feel ten 5 minute sessions are far more effective at changing a pattern than one 50 minute session.

be

[Bill Schwab]

You guys ROCK!!!  This is exactly the advice I needed.  Even though these techniques for changing your reflexes may seem elementary to you GM's, I've been beating my head against a wall on this one.  

A few monthes ago I went to the range and experimented with the grip using a cammed wrist and contact between strong hand thumb and weak hand thumb/heal and was AMAZED at the lack of muzzle rise, but have been unable to "learn" the new grip.  Prior to this experiemntation I felt like I had a good handle on the recoil of my SS 45 (I even get comments on the lack of muzzle rise from other shooters, and yes I'm shooting 170 PF loads).  Once I get this new grip ingrained in my muscle memory Robbie and Phil Strader better watch out!

Thanks again guys.

Bill

[MattBurkett]

Bill,

Here is something you may want to try out. Add some type of texture to the bottom of the trigger guard like skateboard tape or checkering. Now when the left hand is coming into the grip, "pinch and roll" it into position. Boy this would be a lot easier to describe with some video. The left index finger contacts the back of the trigger guard and touches the front of the middle finger of the right hand. The left hand is at a 45 degree angle to the right hand at this point. Now roll the hand up and point the left thumb at the target. The left hand in the final position is fully locked into both the underside of the trigger guard and the back of the hand has a full "meat" contact with the right hand. You should feel pressure on the index finger of the left hand being pinched in place.

Hmm, its late and I may have to rewrite this again for easier comprehension.

Best of luck and I will look at it again in the next day or so. :-)

[38supPat]

Yeah its tough to explain without having a picture handy to reference off of isn't it?..lol

Pat