Tul9033 Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 (edited) I see quite a few posts with people going over the Hodgdons recommended max of 4.3 with a 200gr SWC, some up to 4.6. I'm not making PF with 4.3. I'm around 163 @ 4.3 1.25 OAL and I'd like to have a min 5 PF cushion. I've got mixed feelings going over 4.3. Contemplating going with another powder I have on hand like Titegtoup or WST. I'm comitted to the 200gr SWC, using both plated and moly. I've got over 10 lbs of Clay's and was planning to use it this season, but I expected to make PF @ 4.3. I'm also in a tough situation where I am moving soon and getting ready to break down my reloading gear. I really want to have all my rounds for the season done before the move. Since I can't really develop a load right now I may just fall back to 5gr of Titegroup with the swc. This is used primarily in a 5" Dan Wesson Valor. Edited January 26, 2015 by Tul9033 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Books?!? We don't need no stinkin' books! 45 shooters are the only ones in USPSA who are even close to book loads Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertbank Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 I see quite a few posts with people going over the Hodgdons recommended max of 4.3 with a 200gr SWC, some up to 4.6. I'm not making PF with 4.3. I'm around 163 @ 4.3 1.25 OAL and I'd like to have a min 5 PF cushion. I've got mixed feelings going over 4.3. Contemplating going with another powder I have on hand like Titegtoup or WST. I'm comitted to the 200gr SWC, using both plated and moly. I've got over 10 lbs of Clay's and was planning to use it this season, but I expected to make PF @ 4.3. I'm also in a tough situation where I am moving soon and getting ready to break down my reloading gear. I really want to have all my rounds for the season done before the move. Since I can't really develop a load right now I may just fall back to 5gr of Titegroup with the swc. This is used primarily in a 5" Dan Wesson Valor. 4.4 gr of Clays gave me a 10 shot avg of 173 with a high of 180 and a low of 168 using a Norinco 5" 1911. Temp was 21C or 70F over a F1 Chrony Take Care Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzt Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Personally, I'd use the WST and be done with it. If you want to stick with Clays, experiment with primers. I've been using up the rest of my Clay Dot for practice loads. Clay Dot is a direct substitute for Clays. I find that by going from a CCI300 to a WLP increases my velocity by 15fps. That amount alone would move you to 166PF. You could also try looking at other reloading manuals that list pressures in PSI instead of the ancient CUP. They may list hotter, safe loads. You could also call Hodgdon's Ballistician and ask. You may be surprised at the answer. Here is an example. I like VV N310 powder a lot, and use it. Wilson Combat customs loads a certain 45 ACP round with that powder, but uses 0.4gr more than the max stated by VV. Yet, when called, VV says the load is perfectly safe and they are just super cautious with their reloading data. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A63111 Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 FWIW VV320 had to be loaded under book just to make it down to 165PF. Low book load gives around 190 PF. Just some useless tidbits though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 No pressure signs with any of the loads in chart. Chrono done with 5" 1911 Taurus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 (edited) I strongly advise you to ignore anything I say for legal reasons, but..... 45 is a pretty low-pressure round. The pressure specs date from over 100 years ago, when guns and brass were both less refined. Using a modern gun and modern brass, I don't have any qualms about going slightly over book loads in 45. Additionally, I have shot a fair amount of the .45 duty rounds that my agency issues to the LEO's in the field. It's clear from simply examing the brass that they are significantly higher pressure than my slightly hot clays loads. The primers are flat and the headstamp is starting to wash out from one firing. Yet they run fine in every gun. So I don't worry about it. But if you are worried about it, just use a slightly slower powder and send me your leftover Clays (or switch to 230gr bullets). Edited January 27, 2015 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tul9033 Posted January 28, 2015 Author Share Posted January 28, 2015 Thanks for the info guys. I did notice Hodgdons had the OAL listed as 1.15. I load all of my 200gr SWC to 1.25 so that should lower the pressure a bit. I'll work some 4.4gr and 4.5gr loads up and run them over the chrono. Moly bullets weren't really an issue they were right on the PF line. However, plated were quite a bit under. My next order will be some 200gr SNS coated SWC without the lube grove. I'll admit I'm not the greatest group shooter but, these Clay's loads with Bear Creek moly and Berry's plated were grouping in the 5" range @ 25 yards. Steve RA, thanks for your speadsheets, I look at them often. However, I'm not 100% what I am looking at. Should I just be looking at the average group size (3/5 avg, 4/5 avg, 5/5 avg)? Is the average velocity for both guns/shooters across all strings? What is 3/5, 4/5, 5/5? What do the bolded #'s represent? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 OK, let me explain: The 3/5, 4/5 and 5/5 is because a few writers have said that the best 3 out of 5 rested will approximate the results from a Ransom Rest. I've tried it and it is fairly accurate. 4/5 just shows how the group grows and 5/5 is the whole 5 shot group. The velocities were all taken with a 5" Taurus pistol, same shooter, although that shouldn't make any difference in the results. AVG should not have been in front of velocity. Each velocity shown is from one of the 5 shot groups in that particular charge column and is the average of that 5 shot group. If I remember correctly, the bold # in the 4.7 column was because - for some reason - we didn't have the number written down very clearly. If this isn't all the explanation needed, let me know and I'll try again. Following is a group I shot with the Taurus and the 4.2 grain 200 grain bullet. 25 yards off the previously mentioned 4X4. All the groups were shot using a carpet covered 4X4 for a rest. Maybe not the best but what that particular range uses in the pistol bays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tul9033 Posted February 15, 2015 Author Share Posted February 15, 2015 Wanted to update this. I made up some 200gr plated SWC with 4.4gr of Clays @ 1.25 and was getting 174 PF. I was actually breaking 165 PF with 4.3, but I wasn't tilting the gun back before each shot to get the powder against the primer in my first round of testing. Actually made a significant difference. It's something I usually do and is standard procedure at the chrono at major matches. I tested Clays and Titegroup side by side and it was amazing how much louder Titegroup was than Clays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlmiller1 Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Wow, I don't remember chrono guys at any major events tilting the gun up ever but then again my memory isn't so good. I don't think I would want to count on that happening as a difference between making major & not. But that's just me maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 The effect is worse when you have a large case and small powder charge, lessens as the case becomes more full with powder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tul9033 Posted February 15, 2015 Author Share Posted February 15, 2015 Wow, I don't remember chrono guys at any major events tilting the gun up ever but then again my memory isn't so good. I don't think I would want to count on that happening as a difference between making major & not. But that's just me maybe. The 4.3's were over after elevating the gun. The 4.4's are over without elevating, but go to 174 PF with. From the IDPA rulebook: 2. Official Chronograph Procedure If the chronograph is being done separately from the competitor (pulling and/or bagging ammunition to chronograph) where the chronograph official uses match-supplied guns for the chronograph, the following procedure should implemented. Chronograph three (3) rounds at a distance of ten (10) feet using a gun of MAXIMUM barrel length for the DIVISION. If two (2) of the three (3) rounds exceed the power floor, the competitor is in compliance. Prior to each shot, the muzzle of the gun should be elevated to move the powder charge to the rear of the case, thus giving the competitor every chance to achieve maximum velocity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlmiller1 Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Oh IDPA. I wasnt even thinking about that. Ive only shot one big idpa & that was many years ago. Obviously was thinking uspsa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmorris Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 I strongly advise you to ignore anything I say for legal reasons, but..... Working up loads for an unrelated rifle with the books I have, some more than 30 years old, max charges were as far apart as 6.2 grains (out of 40). Published data is there to keep everyone safe in a large number of firearms, when you go over the loads they publish you take on that responsibility. Fast forward 30 years and people blame MCDonnalds because they spilled a hot drink in their lap and it is easy to see why books may be consertive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Fast forward 30 years and people blame MCDonnalds because they spilled a hot drink in their lap and it is easy to see why books may be consertive. "A vascular surgeon determined that Liebeck suffered full thickness burns (or third-degree burns) over 6 percent of her body, including her inner thighs, perineum, buttocks, and genital and groin areas. She was hospitalized for eight days, during which time she underwent skin grafting. Liebeck, who also underwent debridement treatments, sought to settle her claim for $20,000, but McDonalds refused." http://www.lectlaw.com/files/cur78.htm In case anyone is interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 An ambulance chaser struck again !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now