XL650 setup problem with powder drop/cartridge flare

[skhanna]

I'm new to reloading, and after doing my research on the various reloading presses available (Lee, Hornady, etc), I decided to go with the Dillon XL650 with the .45ACP die set. I bought it through BrianEnos.com, it arrived, I set it up, everything was moving right along. I followed the setup video and the first round seemed to go ok except that I had an inconsistent primer seating. I think I got that sussed out, but when it was time to check the powder drop, every powder drop was slightly different. I called Dillon and they told me to tighten up the rod that runs to the powder measure and that seemed to help. I ran some shells through with mixxed results; some of the shells had seated primers, some didn't (resulting in powder scattered around the press), and the flare wasn't wide enough so it was carving into the copper sheathing on the bullets. What a mess.

Back to the drawing board. I watched a youTube video on setting the 650 dies and it explained how to set the powder die correctly so that I got the correct amount of flare. Worked beautifully, but with the die set at that level, the powder measure doesn't operate. The powder measure needs to be a lot lower.

But if I lower the powder measure, just far enough so that it fully operates, the way it's shown in the installation video, now the cartidges are way over-flared, ruined, and really really tough to get back out of the press (and they were lubed) because they're jammed so far up onto the funnel.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[Baer45]

What was helpful to me when I bought my first progressive (Dillon S1050) and was told there was a 30,000 rd "learning curve". This would be the same regardless of brand. That said, I think your learning curve on the 650 will be much lower. A year from now you will look back and realize every problem you are experiencing is a) a simple fix and the answer to 99% of your problems are answered with the fix in your printed literature.

Without seeing what you are doing it is hard for me to give you an exact fix but others on here probably can. I do not own a 650 but the basics are the same with them all. Check that your powder bar goes from the back all the way out an every pull....it should do this with the die set for proper flair and adjusted as you described. Are the rods inserted into the bar links correctly? Look at the picture of a 650 and see if the linkage matches yours...

Good luck and keep it simple!

C

Marine Corp

Colonial Shooting Academy

Edited December 14, 2014 by Baer45

[Brassaholic13]

Personal preference, but I don't lube the inside of the cases on pistol.

The powder measure die should be adjusted so that the powder bar moves fully. Once you have it adjusted to fully traverse, then you adjust it higher to get the flare desired. 1/16 turn at a time to adjust flare.

[Youngeyes]

Are you sure you are using the correct funnel? S/B the E funnel.

[BritinUSA]

You may already know this;

When setting up your press always ensure that there is an empty case in station 1, this case can affect all the other settings so always have one in there when adjusting the dies.

The powder adjustment is probably the last part of the process; When I change dies I always do the following;

1. Remove the primers and powder, you don't need them when setting up the dies as they just make a mess everywhere.

2. Back out all the dies.

3. Start with the first die, the de-primer, get that setup and with a case in the die tighten it down.

4. Make sure that there is always a case in position #1 for position #2 adjust the powder die so it bells the case just enough to seat the bullet, then with the case in the die, lock it down.

5. Repeat this process for each die, always making sure that there is a case in position #1.

At the end of all this you should have loaded round without primer or powder, pull that bullet and make sure that the crimp has not left a mark on the bullet.

Then adjust the powder measure to deliver the right amount of powder, you can manually cycle the bar by hand to test the amount of powder (hold a case up to the die).

The primer thing should not need any adjustment.

It usually takes me 1-2 hours to get everything set up right.

[skhanna]

Thanks guys,

Are you sure you are using the correct funnel? S/B the E funnel.

I only have one funnel, the one that came with this setup, but I'll double-check it.

[skhanna]

You may already know this;

When setting up your press always ensure that there is an empty case in station 1, this case can affect all the other settings so always have one in there when adjusting the dies.

The powder adjustment is probably the last part of the process; When I change dies I always do the following;

1. Remove the primers and powder, you don't need them when setting up the dies as they just make a mess everywhere.

2. Back out all the dies.

3. Start with the first die, the de-primer, get that setup and with a case in the die tighten it down.

4. Make sure that there is always a case in position #1 for position #2 adjust the powder die so it bells the case just enough to seat the bullet, then with the case in the die, lock it down.

5. Repeat this process for each die, always making sure that there is a case in position #1.

At the end of all this you should have loaded round without primer or powder, pull that bullet and make sure that the crimp has not left a mark on the bullet.

Then adjust the powder measure to deliver the right amount of powder, you can manually cycle the bar by hand to test the amount of powder (hold a case up to the die).

The primer thing should not need any adjustment.

It usually takes me 1-2 hours to get everything set up right

Thanks for writing all that out, I'll go through it again this evening and post the result here.

[skhanna]

What was helpful to me when I bought my first progressive (Dillon S1050) and was told there was a 30,000 rd "learning curve". This would be the same regardless of brand. That said, I think your learning curve on the 650 will be much lower. A year from now you will look back and realize every problem you are experiencing is a) a simple fix and the answer to 99% of your problems are answered with the fix in your printed literature.

Without seeing what you are doing it is hard for me to give you an exact fix but others on here probably can. I do not own a 650 but the basics are the same with them all. Check that your powder bar goes from the back all the way out an every pull....it should do this with the die set for proper flair and adjusted as you described. Are the rods inserted into the bar links correctly? Look at the picture of a 650 and see if the linkage matches yours...

Good luck and keep it simple!

C

Marine Corp

Colonial Shooting Academy

Thanks for the encouragement, patience is definitely a virtue with this.

I'll check the pictures, maybe that's it. For the most part, the Dillion videos seem pretty straight-forward, but it does sometimes shows the press from reverse angles, that's thrown me off before.

[skhanna]

Personal preference, but I don't lube the inside of the cases on pistol.

The powder measure die should be adjusted so that the powder bar moves fully. Once you have it adjusted to fully traverse, then you adjust it higher to get the flare desired. 1/16 turn at a time to adjust flare.

I only lubed the inside of the case because I had gotten a previous case stuck on the funnel and I was hoping that if it happened again during the setup process, that might make it easier to extract.

[BritinUSA]

I only lubed the inside of the case because I had gotten a previous case stuck on the funnel and I was hoping that if it happened again during the setup process, that might make it easier to extract.

If you are using brand new brass then you won't need the lube, but you should tumble brand-new brass for about 30-45 minutes, there is a fine dust that accumulates on the cases probably during manufacturing and this can cause the case to stick to the powder funnel, tumbling will solve that problem.

[mikeinctown]

When you are setting the powder die, screw it in just far enough so that the powder measure bar operates fully. (and make sure the powder measure is tightened up on the die after each adjustment as well) You'll probably notice that when you do this that you will get NO bell on the case. This is when you screw the die in a little more incrementally until you get the bell you require. You should be able to take the drop funnel thing and slide it inside a case. it will be very snug but it will slide inside and pull freely. The actual printed instructions are very clear about this and easy to understand.

The one thing the instructions are terrible at is describing how the return bar is connected. (the black rod with the spring and wing nut) it goes in from the left and runs parallel to the press frame. The nut should be tightened so that the spring is compressed about halfway. This still allows give in the spring and the powder measure will operate smoothly. IIRC the instructions say to tighten the nut until the spring barely touches. This does not work.

With the primers, there is a good chance that you just aren't pushing the handle back enough to seat the primer fully. Until you get the process down, after seating the primer let go of the handle and remove the case from station 2 and inspect it. If the primer isn't seated correctly, insert the case back in and give the handle another push. The primers will seat a LOT easier in some cases than in others. You'll be able to get a feel for the primers as time goes on.

Edited December 15, 2014 by mikeinctown

[jmorris]

Personal preference, but I don't lube the inside of the cases on pistol.

The powder measure die should be adjusted so that the powder bar moves fully. Once you have it adjusted to fully traverse, then you adjust it higher to get the flare desired. 1/16 turn at a time to adjust flare.

The more you thread the die into the tool head the lower it goes and more it will flare/bell the case mouth.

The powde measure will make a complete stroke and make zero flare, just expand the mouth.

The failsafe rod only makes sure that it completely returns.

As noted above primer depth is controlled by the operator when you push the arm forward at the bottom of the ram's stroke.

[Sarge]

I don't think your powder measure is in the right place on the powder die. Loosen the two bolts waaaay out and spread the two pieces apart and see if the measure drops down another 1/4" or so. It will tighten down just fine in the wrong place. I know, I did it once and it belled the brass about twice it's original diameter.

[skhanna]

I went back to the beginning of the powder measure setup, the die needed to be screwed nearly all the way down (within a quarter inch of remaining threads) before the powder measure run the complete travel. I adjusted it carefully to right about where it made full travel, then tightened the die nut.

At this point, when I ran a casing through it, the primer seated perfectly and the case went up and came back down without fuss, but it had too much flare/belling on it. So I loosened the nut on the primer die, and turned it to raise it back up about a 16th of a turn, and put another case through it. This time the flare/belling was twice as much as before. I thought, maybe it needed to seat/settle in, so I tried another, same thing. So I loosened the nut again, turned it to raise the die another 16th, and this time the casing was completely stuck. When I finally got the lever back up again, lowering the shell plate and the casing, the casing was radically flared, the top was shaved half off, and my fun-meter was about pegged out.

So my question is... apparently, raising the powder die (so that the powder drop sits higher off the top of the toolhead) causes MORE flare/belling, not less? That seems counter-intuitive, but if you guys confirm it, I'll adjust in the other direction.

[skhanna]

I don't think your powder measure is in the right place on the powder die. Loosen the two bolts waaaay out and spread the two pieces apart and see if the measure drops down another 1/4" or so. It will tighten down just fine in the wrong place. I know, I did it once and it belled the brass about twice it's original diameter.

I loosened the two screws way out so that the collar was completely away from the die when I seated it, then tightened it back down (finger-tight).

[Youngeyes]

If you raise the powder die and the powder measure up you will bell less. Take the powder measure off the die, check the funnel, reset the measure on the die( see Sarge's post) and reset the die according to Dillon's instructions If the powder measure is not attached correctly the funnel with stick.If it's the wrong funnel you'll have similar problems. Start from scratch. You'll find the problem.

[Henny]

Are you sure your fail safe rod is in the powder measure correctly? (Left to right as you are looking at the machine)

If it's in wrong, it can cause all kinds of flair problems with the case and powder bar travel.

ETA: if all else fails, remove the die and turn to page 11 in your manual, and follow the instructions verbatim.

Edited December 16, 2014 by Henny

[mikeinctown]

By the way... STOP INSERTING PRIMERS!!! There is abslutely no reason to even touch the primer station until you have all the dies set correctly. The primer station should be the last thing you get involved in. In fact, even when setting up your powder measure for an actual measurement once you get the dies set, use the powder pan with the scale and work the measure by hand, taking 10 drops at a time to get an accurate reading. Only then will you need to worry about the primer station.

1/4" from where the threads end is too far down into the took head. I think on mine it is near 3/8" to 1/2". (I am also doing 45ACP) Also, as mentioned, the two hex bolts that hold the powder measure to the die need to be really loose before the powder measure wil seat correctly onto the die. You'll wiggle it a bunch and then will finally feel it "pop" down into place. When you seat the die up or down, just loosen the measure bolts a little but do not remove it. Hold the measure in place with one hand while you turn the die in or out. This will keep you from needing to completelyloosen the bolts each time you need to move the die a quarter turn.

Edit your location so we know where you are. There may be someone loacl willing to give you a hand.

[Henny]

Maybe this could help you? I took some pictures of my 650 tool head for 45 ACP this morning so you could get an idea for the positioning of the powder die:

Also, the primer seating problems are from not pushing the handle fully to the rear when trying to seat the primer.

Don't worry, we all started being new! In a few months you'll be cranking out rounds and not even giving anything a second thought!

[leewongfei]

When i got my 650, the bolts on the powder measure where so tight, that the powder measure didnt not want to cycle. Specifically, the bolts that hold the hardware for the fail safe system. Having a 550 set up, i was able to spot the problem pretty fast. I loosened them up a very small pinch, just enough to remove the he-man tightening it received at the factory, and its been fine since.

You do not need a HE-MAN grip to tighten the powder measure.

[mikeinctown]

Snapped a pic of my setup as well and it is similar to Henny's in appearance of the die.

20141216_193232 by mikeinctown, on Flickr

Right now I have the bolts that hold the collar loose enough to remove the measure as I don't keep powder in there. But, you can clearly see that the die is significantly higher than the others. (two Dillon and one a Lee FCD)

[Henny]

Snapped a pic of my setup as well and it is similar to Henny's in appearance of the die.

20141216_193232 by mikeinctown, on Flickr

Right now I have the bolts that hold the collar loose enough to remove the measure as I don't keep powder in there. But, you can clearly see that the die is significantly higher than the others. (two Dillon and one a Lee FCD)

Hey Mike! Get out of my reloading room and put those primers down! ; )

Edited December 17, 2014 by Henny

[mikeinctown]

Any update on what the final solution to the problem was?

[AlphaShot]

I had the same issue and my problem was not in the dies but in the arm. I did not buy the stand and just mounted the loader on my bench. the bench was too think and the bolt that holds the operation arm on was hitting the bottom of the bench causing the loader to be short about 1/8 of an inch on the back stroke. (almost imperceivable) But as soon as I drummed out some space on the bench everything worked fine. BTW SMALL PRIMERS IN 45ACP Suck.