Dirty Steve Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 I am having a difficult time shooting good groups. Heck any type of groups at fifty yards prone. My sight has been narrowed. The sight just wont stay in focus. Standing the sight is alway nice and sharp.. How do you all shoot prone. I basically have been laying flat and straight towards the target. Dirty Steve, Out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 Do you shoot with prescription glasses? Also laying straight towards the target is a big nono, it puts your body in a terrible position for shooting accurate shots. Cock your body off about 45 degrees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Steve Posted January 24, 2005 Author Share Posted January 24, 2005 I don't wear glasses and have excellent vision. Jake do you roll to one side or lay flat..? Dirty Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDave Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 When I go prone on the Practical, and it is new to me, I try to do a roll over type prone position. I'm a big guy, so I have trouble getting my head into a position to even line the sights up when I'm prone. I have to bury my right ear into my right bicep. Once there, I have no problem with a sight picture. What I think you really need to avoid is the sensation you get when your head is up, like when looking at the computer monitor, and then trying to see the point on the ceiling that is directly over your head without moving your head. Try to find a head postion that will allow you the most neutral eye position. At least that is what I try to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 I shoot prone on my stomach and rarely go into roll over prone.... The only reason I can think of that you can't focus on the sights is your in a contorted position, or maybe your glasses are funky when looking out of them a certain way. Not really sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberkid Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 Steve, If your a big guy, or just one with a thick chest, a roll over, or canted prone is worth giving a try. You may want to go so far as to just set your cheek against your shoulder and sight right down your arm. That being said, I lay straight ahead at the target with no cant at all, regardless of the gun, be it Open or Stock. Another thing to check is the tension in your neck. If you feel even the slightest bit of strain when looking through the sights for an extended period of time, try a different angle/position. The neck strain may be what is making your vision go blurry. The neck strain shows the inhibited blood flow to the head, thus the eyes also, which when short of blood/oxygen go out of focus. Something that may be an issue also is your glasses as someone already suggested. What happens a lot is that when you go down prone and your head/neck are turned up to see the sights, your glasses slide down the bridge of your nose. Even if they dont slide, you may be looking through the topmost portion of the lens, where your prescription is not at its truest. I had a special set of lenses cut with the optical center raised 3mm to compensate for this. It was a very expensive route to go, but they work amazing when shooting prone. However, they suck for everything else. Just some thoughts, give em all a try, and when none of them work, blame Kevin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRT Driver Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 Kimber Kid is right on. Most of the problems shooting prone come from tension. I have a tendency to raise my head when prone and the tension comes from forcing myself to get low so I can look through the sights. No problem with Open class. Big problem in Met Sight. Another enemy is paralax. If you shoot a lot of Open class AP, prone shooting technique is a must. (not as much now but maybe things will return to normal some day ) This is why most open guns have some sort of prone base or magwell to steady and raise the gun so your are not looking out of the top or side of your eye or strain to keep your head down. Optics help too since they are farther above the bore and allow you to look straight into the tube. Met sight is another animal. They are lower and don't have the advantage of scope rings and bases. You'll have to find a position that allows you to look straight at the sights. I have a pair of glasses that moved the ocular center up 5mm. My zero changes with another pair of glasses since the image in my eye gets more distorted. Not much, but enough to notice. Maybe Jake's technique will work for you. I am not a barrel chested guy and prefer to get straight on. Things look strange canted for me. Work with it and see what works for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allgoodhits Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 I am having a difficult time shooting good groups. Heck any type of groups at fifty yards prone. My sight has been narrowed. The sight just wont stay in focus. Standing the sight is alway nice and sharp.. How do you all shoot prone. I basically have been laying flat and straight towards the target.Dirty Steve, Out Possibly stating the obvious, but how does the same gun and ammo shoot "other than prone" at 50yds? If you haven't already, sandbag it from a bench, ransom rest, or maybe have someone else give it a try. The difference from 25 to 50 yds is double the distance, but group sizes may easily be more than double the size at 50 vs 25! If it is not a gun or ammo issue, then my bet is that it has to do with looking out the tops of your shooting glasses. I WOULD NEVER TRY THIS SHOOTING, but next time you are at the range and at 50 yds, take your glasses off, get in the same prone position and get a visual on what you see. If the sights, sight picture, target etc. look better, then it is CLEARLY a lens problem. You don't need to shoot to do this visual check. Put the glasses on, then off a few times, kinda like the eye DR does with their "which is better 1 or 2, 3 or 4". I did corrective glasses with the optical center "off center" in 1978 to deal with trying to shoot PPC, and it worked. Today, I wear contacts, so the problem is not as great, plus I don't have as many position issues in AP as in PPC, but still exists when you have to look through safety glasses when the lens is not perpendicular to the eye. Alan550 is pretty knowledgeable about this stuff. Also, in the summer, oil or sweat from my eyebrow is a real problem on the top portion of my lenses. Trying to look through that is almost impossible! MJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Steve Posted January 24, 2005 Author Share Posted January 24, 2005 The gun shoots fine at 50 when I sand bagged it a while back. So I don't think it is a gun issue. The gun was rebarreled by Alex Hamilton so I can pretty much rule out gun issues. I am loading a diffrent batch of bullets to see if it is an ammo problem. Some cast and jacketed. I don't wear glasses and if I did I know a guy here in town that will let you bring in your gun and make you a pair of glasses with the optical center ground toward the top of the lens. I went through this with another guy shooting HP Rifle. I am thick in the chest as well as the mid section. So I may try the roll over prone. Kimber Kid hit the nail on the head I think. I am straining to beat hell when going prone and looking through the sights. Allan is pretty much in the optic biz if I remember correctly. I wear Oakely glasses when shooting. Dirty Steve, Out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allgoodhits Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 You keep saying that you don't wear glasses. Not even protective glasses? They also can have the effect, probably not as great as prescription glasses, but the similar. It is similar to putting a stick in a bucket of water, the stick looks bent. When you look through the lens at an angle, you still see the target, but the target isn't where you see it! The greater the angle and likely the greater the prescription the target image displacement is greater. Possibly 1-5 inches at 50 yds. If your gun could shoot an inch group, and the target image displacement is 3 inches, and you move your head around (not anchored) then the one inch group becomes a 3-6 inch group. In PPC at 50 yds, we had to shoot sitting, prone, left side barricade and right side barricade--4 positions, all quite different, requiring the head angle to change. The way I identified the problem was that I would hang four targets. I then would shoot the required 24 shot string of 6 shots from each of the four positions, but I would shoot each string on a different target. To my amazement, I had groups in four different areas of each of the targets. Forgetting group size variation, I had learned that while my visual was the same (head hold at 50) the groups moved as my head moved from position to position. I later learned that my head movement didn't matter. What mattered was that I was looking through different parts of the lens from the different positions. Basically shooting sitting and prone I would string either up or down, and shooting left, right barricade I would string left or right. I first corrected this by holding slightly off for the various shooting positions. Later I had the glasses ground with off center optical center which helped. Ideally I should have had four different sets of glasses for the four positions, but that wasn't practical. This off center OC correction took me from dropping 6-10 pts at the 50 to shooting it 3-5 down or less often, with several clean 50's, two 600's and two 1496's! You have got to be able to see the sights/target and the sights/target have to be where you see'em! Identify the problem, then find the solution-- your way. Be safe MJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Steve Posted January 24, 2005 Author Share Posted January 24, 2005 MJ I do wear Oakley glasses to shoot. Didn't think to much of it since they are not prescription. I edited my above post to include these glasses. I shoot better with no glasses but that is not allowed. I wish they were only required when shooting steel. I guess I will spend a lot of time shooting 50 to figure out what is the best way for me to shoot it. DS, Out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan550 Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 Steve, MJ hit it on the head. There is some parallax involved when you look through the upper edge of those lenses, as opposed to standing looking through the centers. If it's legal, you may want to get one of those prone pads that Warren Moore makes that are mentioned elsewhere on here (same guy that makes the Stick-Shift). The rollover-prone thing that Kimber Kid mentioned is another possibility, since you'll not be using so much of the lens periphery, and more towards the center. Another thought.........try putting the temples of the glasses lower, maybe as far as having them below your ears under the muffs to change the lens angle more towards vertical for prone shooting if you are lying straight-on to the target........just an idea. Hope you find the answer in time to get in some practice with it before the Cup. Alan~^~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Taylor Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Dirty Steve: I had same problem when I started shooting Action Pistola. Just couldn't seem to shoot any kind of a group. No consistency, etc. I spent a lot of time on my belly shooting paper plates at 50 yds. A consistent technique evolved. I start with body angled about 45 to line of bullet flight, strong side foot in the rear. I actually align my shooting mat (magic carpet) as above. When I am down I can see the sights without any distortion. Also the higher you can mount your sight the better. SOme put prone pads on the base of the pistol. Your more flexible and less rotund individuals can face the target and shoot, but the rest of us have to get on an angle. It's like the first rule of welding.... Assume a comfortable, relaxed position. Play around with it until you find that sweet spot that is yours, then practice getting into that position consistently. Jim Taylor Bored in the KSA Riyadh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trader Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Does Warren Moore have a website or a catalog? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRT Driver Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Trader, No, he does not. But if you contact Jim at Cylinder and Slide, I'm sure he could get you contact info. They share space at Bianchi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leroy Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Steve Alan makes glasses for a living he knows, what he is talkin about when it come to lenses and sights.. Leroy Now if I can just find that buzzard... Leroy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Stupid Question Mode: Is shooting prone at 50 mandatory at the Cup? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDave Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Nope - its optional. I stood at the 50 yd line at Columbia last year. My scores showed that too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Action Pistolero Posted January 26, 2005 Share Posted January 26, 2005 Warren Moore's phone number is 913-422-8966. Call before 2 PM central. The last I heard he was selling them for $150. They are almost an exact copy of the prone pad that Riley Gilmore sells on his custom pistols. The problem is that Riley will not sell you one unless you buy one of his guns. I had Warren make these last year before the Cup. They work very well. Some would say that they cost too much but they are basically the only choice out there. EGW used to have one but it doesn't provide the support that this one does. If you talk to him tell him that Kevin says hello. I'm sure he'll get a kick out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Steve Posted January 26, 2005 Author Share Posted January 26, 2005 OK, Looks like I will start shooting at an angle and see if I can narrow my front sight any more. I need to measure it and see what it is now. Also as Allan suggets wear my glasses like a dork. Haha. Heck if it works that is all that counts. And if that fails practice a lot standing. I knew Allan made glasses but didn't know how to spell the correct title for a person with such a job. I was educated in Allan's neck of the woods. Well they tried to educate me. At least they said they tried. Leroy, That buzzard was hit by a car. Sorry.. I have Warren Morre's email address. Warren Moore E-mail Address(es): wmoore5@kc.rr.com Dirty Steve, Out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcoliver Posted January 26, 2005 Share Posted January 26, 2005 [Noob-long-range-prone-shooting-question] If your body is 45 degrees off to one side (on the weak side, right?) wouldn't that put your weak hand a little bit more bent than usual? So you're like holding the gun weaver-style? I tried it last night and it was difficult to keep the weak thumb pointing forward without seriously putting sideways pressure on the gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougCarden Posted January 26, 2005 Share Posted January 26, 2005 Steve, FWIW, I was using a narrow front sight shooting groups at 25 and 50 yds. I put a wider front sight back on and my groups improved drastically. It seems that with the wider front sight you have less adjustment, which means less bullets all over the place at those distances. Worked for me anyway..... DougC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmbeckwith Posted January 26, 2005 Share Posted January 26, 2005 OK, here is a secret I received a long time ago from John Pride, if your a revolver shooter don't release the triger to soon when the shot breaks. Make yourself hold the trigger back on the frame until the gun settles. John helped me bring my group size down by doing this. Kim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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