kamikaze1a Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 Trying to wrap my mind around this part of Speed Shoot rule 1.2.2.3. The written stage briefing may specify engaging arrays of targets without violating rule (1.1.5), as long as the competitor is allowed to engage said arrays in any order, and individual target engagement is not specified. No more than eight rounds may be required without a mandatory reload Does this mean that with a 16 shot COF, the targets should be grouped in arrays (4 paper or 8 steel) so that the WSB could state that the mandatory reload is after this array? Otherwise, how would you designate when the mandatory reload would be done? Anybody with a sample WSB and COF diagram? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 As long as the WSB delineates what each "array" of targets consists of it can be any mixture of paper or steel targets combined to make a single array. Just as long as that each array of targets does not require more than 8 rounds to engage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 You can also specify that there has to be a reload after engaging the first target and before engaging the last target. There was a rather lengthy thread on this a couple years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamikaze1a Posted October 2, 2014 Author Share Posted October 2, 2014 So when the USPSA wrote; "No more than eight rounds may be required without a mandatory reload", the WSB is not "requiring" a certain number or more than eight shots before the reload but is allowing shooter to choose. Just requiring a reload any time between the first target and the last target fulfills the one mandatory reload? The "no more than...required" part was what got me... Thanks! You can also specify that there has to be a reload after engaging the first target and before engaging the last target. There was a rather lengthy thread on this a couple years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamikaze1a Posted October 2, 2014 Author Share Posted October 2, 2014 I think I found the thread; http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=162268&hl=+mandatory%20+reload%20+speed%20+shoot Before I had posted my question, I had searched for for an answer using "Speed Shoot" but did not find resolution. Now including "mandatory reload" in the parameters I found that old thread. Reading these new replies and the old thread cleared my thinking even more. The "mandatory reload" is not really about declaring a reload after the 8th shot but rather requiring a reload IF MORE THAN eight shots are required? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 I think I found the thread; http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=162268&hl=+mandatory%20+reload%20+speed%20+shoot Before I had posted my question, I had searched for for an answer using "Speed Shoot" but did not find resolution. Now including "mandatory reload" in the parameters I found that old thread. Reading these new replies and the old thread cleared my thinking even more. The "mandatory reload" is not really about declaring a reload after the 8th shot but rather requiring a reload IF MORE THAN eight shots are required? You cannot require more than 8 rounds on an array. Think of array 1 as 4 paper and array 2 as 8 steel. Most people will shoot 8 rounds and 8 rounds only at the paper. The steel people will shoot until either the gun runs dry or until they knock them all down. Shoot "One for One" and it will only take the required 8 rounds. Miss any of them and you keep shooting until you knock them all down or reload. Once they are all down the COF is either over with. OR, you execute a reload and proceed to engage the other array. If the WSB is written poorly the competitor might be able to start engaging the other array without the reload between arrays as long as they have already completed one while shooting at the previous array. The mandatory reload is more a case of requiring a reload if the speed shoot takes less than 8 rounds on an array. Set up a COF with 4 steel and 2 paper and you have an 8 round COF. Now is the time to require the mandatory reload between arrays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag316 Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 I think I found the thread; http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=162268&hl=+mandatory%20+reload%20+speed%20+shoot Before I had posted my question, I had searched for for an answer using "Speed Shoot" but did not find resolution. Now including "mandatory reload" in the parameters I found that old thread. Reading these new replies and the old thread cleared my thinking even more. The "mandatory reload" is not really about declaring a reload after the 8th shot but rather requiring a reload IF MORE THAN eight shots are required? This goes along with the rule that says you can't require a competitor to make more than eight shots from a single shooting position (e.g., if there are more than eight from a position, at least some of them must be available later in the COF). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 The "mandatory reload" is not really about declaring a reload after the 8th shot but rather requiring a reload IF MORE THAN eight shots are required? Require is the key word. I cannot make someone stand in one place and shoot 6 targets. But, if I require them to do a reload somewhere between their first and last shot then it's up to them how they divide those 12 shots up. A 6 paper target (12 shot) speed shoot with a reload, lets production, SS, and revolver all divide the targets how it best suits them Note: Specifying somewhere "after engaging the first target and before engaging the last target", just eliminates some odd-ball tricks that might be played. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 Note: Specifying somewhere "after engaging the first target and before engaging the last target", just eliminates some odd-ball tricks that might be played. Like a Limited shooter dropping his mag and reloading on the draw, then hosing the targets. I've seen that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayWord Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 Note: Specifying somewhere "after engaging the first target and before engaging the last target", just eliminates some odd-ball tricks that might be played. Like a Limited shooter dropping his mag and reloading on the draw, then hosing the targets. I've seen that one. Ah, a variation on the Detroit reload. While not prohibited by rule, IMHO after the first shot and before the last is a poor WSB. In non-capacity constrained divisions, they will not reload. -10 vs. the reload time. Unless they do not have enough rounds to complete the stage a Open or Limited shooter may not choose to reload to save the time once they do the math. Also, speed shoots are done from one location so you cannot require more than 8 rounds. A common WSB might be engage T1-T4 with 2 rounds each, make a mandatory reload and engage PP1-PP8 until down. In this case you can engage either array paper or steel make the reload and engage the other array. How you shoot the arrays is up to you, right to left, left to right, from the center each way, every other popper, big ones then small ones, etc. Jay Jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 (edited) In non-capacity constrained divisions, they will not reload. -10 vs. the reload time. Skipping a reload is 1 penalty per shot so it depends on how the reload is specified. If it is specified as "before engaging the last target", then it would be 2 proceduals. Edited October 2, 2014 by Graham Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamikaze1a Posted October 2, 2014 Author Share Posted October 2, 2014 I like "mandatory reload at any point between first and last target" the best. Just stating a mandatory reload required would be interesting too just to see how many would catch the loop hole. I often word the WSB to give the shooter the option to engage with their own unique spin or as the USPSA says..."free style". I feel that is more fun than a cookie cutter COF where everyone shoots it the same way. From my point of view, gamers keep the stage designers on their toes. Thanks everyone for your input! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 Also, speed shoots are done from one location so you cannot require more than 8 rounds. Not correct. A speed shoot is a special type of stage that can consist of up to 16 rounds from a single spot - as long as there is a reload required. That's what started this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 Also, speed shoots are done from one location so you cannot require more than 8 rounds. Not correct. A speed shoot is a special type of stage that can consist of up to 16 rounds from a single spot - as long as there is a reload required. That's what started this thread. Graham, care to parse that first sentence again? 1.2.2.3 Speed Shoot-Courses of fire consisting of one continuous string of fire not exceeding 16 rounds shot on one or more arrays of multiple targets from a single location or view. If it's not from a single location or view, then it's just a standard medium course.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark R Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 You can shoot 8 targets (1 shot each), perform a reload, and reshoot all 8 (1 shot each). Nothing says you are required 2 rounds minimum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 ...care to parse that first sentence again... A speed shoot is a special type of stage that: a. Can be up to 16 rounds from a single spot (location). b. If it's more than 8 rounds, then a reload is required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 ...care to parse that first sentence again... A speed shoot is a special type of stage that: a. Can be up to 16 rounds from a single spot (location). b. If it's more than 8 rounds, then a reload is required. Except that if it consists of two or more locations, then you've really got a medium course, no? So practically speaking, Jay is correct..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 Nik, Jay said that a speed shoot couldn't be more than 8 rounds since it was shot from a single location/view. That's incorrect. A speed shoot can be up to 16 rounds from one location IF there is a required reload. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 (edited) Note: Specifying somewhere "after engaging the first target and before engaging the last target", just eliminates some odd-ball tricks that might be played. Like a Limited shooter dropping his mag and reloading on the draw, then hosing the targets. I've seen that one. Also, speed shoots are done from one location so you cannot require more than 8 rounds. Jay Jay Graham You are correct. I think Jay forgot to include the reload part assuming that we already knew that part. I can set up a stage that has 16 rounds with 1 target on the left behind a wall and one target behind a wall on the right. I can then set the remaining 6 targets in the middle. Open and Limited shooters can take everything without a reload. All other divisions will be required to execute at least one reload. This is a legal Medium COF due to the multiple locations and views needed to shoot the COF. IF I put all 8 targets in the open and forced you to engage them with 2 shots each from a shooting box I would have to require ALL divisions to execute a reload in order for it to be a legal Speed Shoot. Because, as a Speed Shoot I cannot require more than 8 rounds without also requiring a reload. Edited October 6, 2014 by Poppa Bear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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