SingleStack vs. L10

[GeorgeInNePa]

John,

I generally shoot Open and sometimes limited just because of the fact that that is where the competition is. It really sucks when you show up for a match with the production gun and find out your the lone ranger. As far as the ITRC I'd love to but it won't be this year. Waiting on the call for Sgt. and buying a house. I'll be lucky to squeeze in Nats. this year.

BUT, you're just so damn good Chriss, you should shoot your Production gun in Open or Limited. You would probably win, right?

[gmshtr]

This seems just like every other arguement/debate on most other topics. Many of us will just have to agree to disagree. That's what makes this country so great!

(stars and stripes playing in the background)

[Chriss Grube]

George,

Actually I suck but at least I kicked your butt at the MASC

[mark dye]

just my two cents worth...

one of the original selling points of the L10 division was that hi-cap mags were extremely expensive/unobtainable. With the dissolution of the 1994 Crime bill, this is no longer the case. Those guys plugging away with widebody guns in L10 would have no problem finding mags to shoot in Limited. I am opposed to creating a NEW division for SS shooters because the previously discussed dilution of the level of competition (if we have enough divisions, maybe even I could become a national champion). I believe that the sensible option would be to make L10 into a SS 8-round division but not restricted to 1911's (Sig 220's, S&W 1045's, etc. would be fine too). As noted before, almost every gun company on earth is now producing or plans to produce a single stack 1911. In my opinion, we simply can't afford to ignore that level of potential sponsorship for our shooters and matches. Just look at the number of new sponsorships which have resulted from the Production class (Glock, Sig, CZ all have sponsored shooters and regularly donate prizes to matches). I feel that the same phenomenon would occur if L10 became SS only. Para-Ord, STI, etc. who are already stellar sponsors make single stacks in addition to their widebodies. I don't feel that the change wuld hurt them at all, and might boost sales of SS models.

Further, we have to consider new shooters. Almost every new shooter in USPSA stares with either a SS 1911 or a Glock. They may graduate to something else later, but that's where we generally all start. At our local club match yesterday, we had 40 shooters...16 of which shot SS 1911's. A quick poll told me that most of these guys were not USPSA members, had no current classification, and had never attended a major match. They simply felt that they didn't have the equipment to compete.

We need to get these guys involved with USPSA and major matches without further dilluting our level of competition, while attracting new sponsors to our sport at the same time. Losing current L10 to a SS division might be a small price to pay.

mark

[Chuck D]

Not everyone has access to standard capacity mags, especially those in California, New York, New Jersey, Mass. and Hawaii , so therefore the opinion that "those guys plugging away with wide bodies in L10 would have no problem finding mags to shoot in Limited" is an incorrect assumption.

I'm not sure where this incorrect assumption comes from but I'd REALLY like it if people would try and understand that some States have superceeding State laws that uphold the AWB even after it sunsetted Nationwide. The critical fact remains that the guns sold to consumers in these (and other) localities come from the factory with a 10 round only magazine and replacement mags sold in these localities (and others) are of the 10 round only variety. Thus the real reason for L10 division and the 10 round limit in Production division. New shooters and shooters in "capacity challenged" localities can purchase guns and magazines that are both LEGAL in their respective States and COMPETITIVE on a national basis. You can now live in California for example and shoot a Nationals or Area championship outside of California in a division that does not require the shooter to "borrow" magazines or break the laws of his/her State to be competitive.

Of course...you've encountered my attempt to explain this fact before... to no avail.

[Merlin Orr]

This seems just like every other arguement/debate on most other topics.  Many of us will just have to agree to disagree.  That's what makes this country so great! 

(stars and stripes playing in the background)

Repost after every two replies....

[SteveZ]

Not everyone has access to standard capacity mags, especially those in California, New York, New Jersey, Mass. and Hawaii ...

I'm not sure where this incorrect assumption comes from but I'd REALLY like it if people would try and understand that some States have superceeding State laws that uphold the AWB even after it sunsetted Nationwide.

At the rate things are going....Washington State may soon be added to the list of states with their own AWB laws. Bills have already been submitted and from the tone of things....the initial hearings didn't go well at the state capitol.

If SS division is the answer to the L10 problem...then maybe we should do away with Limited and make everyone shoot L10 nationwide!

Sounds pretty stupid huh! About as farfetched as creating a SS division to "fix" L10

[Chriss Grube]

Why not go with the simple fix of when in Rome do as the romans? If you're in a state that limits the mag capacity then everybody shoots that limit in that state.(for all the law abiding people it keeps them legal) Then the rest of us that still live in a free country can play and we can all stop argueing over this every 2 months. As far as the new shooters they aren't going to have the proper gear when they start anyway. They will be loaned gear and have to upgrade anyway. It would be much better for the sport if we educated the potential new shooters that they can come and shoot IPSC rather than trying to come up with some new BS division. I broke down and shot a IDPA match yesterday. I spoke to 5-6 guys that didn't think they could shoot IPSC with IDPA gear. I explained Prod. and L-10 and hopefully we will have a couple more shooters next weekend. Right now there are a lot of pissed off IDPA shooters because of some of the dumbassed rule changes looking for a new place to play. Learn from their mistakes and leave the rules alone.

[spook]

This seems just like every other arguement/debate on most other topics.  Many of us will just have to agree to disagree.  That's what makes this country so great! 

(stars and stripes playing in the background)

Repost after every two replies....

I'm sorry Merlin, what were you saying?

[JesseKH]

Since alot of these posts center around adding new shooters to the sport, and I am a new USPSA shooter, perhaps I could give you my take on this topic.

As a SS (non-1911 style) .45 shooter, it took me all of 2 shoots to realize that there is no clear cut answer as to which division I should be shooting in. I started a post recently asking for advice on that very question. My 2 choices are basically Production (i.e. 9mm division - 10 shot/minor scoring) or L10 ("limited" guns and "racier" equipment). My production .45 leaves me at a disadvantage in each division, or there would be no need for major/minor scoring in other divisions, and no need for L10 at all, as "limited" gun shooters could just compete in Production, or vice versa. Now, I am no where near good enough to even notice these slight disadvantages in my shooting ( maybe someday...), and I would continue shooting even if I had to shoot in Open because I love to shoot the courses (even if not competitively) - but I am aware that my gun is not really a good fit anywhere. For me it doesn't matter, for other prople it might.

My suggestion would be that instead of adding another division, change Production. Since most of these SS's are production guns, that seems the logical place. Production could be converted into a 10 round max/minor scoring and 8 round max/major scoring division (or something like that), with appropiate PF's. Drop the unenforced "no SA only guns" ( Glocks are DA?) and some of the other silly restrictions ( like the one concerning my $20 grips that changed my gun to "limited"), and SS .45's have a home.

Just my $.02 (or less?) worth.

[GeorgeInNePa]

Since alot of these posts center around adding new shooters to the sport, and I am a new USPSA shooter, perhaps I could give you my take on this topic.

As a SS (non-1911 style) .45 shooter, it took me all of 2 shoots to realize that  there is no clear cut answer as to which division I should be shooting in.  I started a post recently asking for advice on that very question.  My 2 choices are basically Production (i.e. 9mm division - 10 shot/minor scoring) or L10 ("limited" guns and "racier" equipment).  My production .45 leaves me at a disadvantage in each division, or there would be no need for major/minor scoring in other divisions, and no need for L10 at all, as "limited" gun shooters could just compete in Production, or vice versa.  Now, I am no where near good enough to even notice these slight disadvantages in my shooting ( maybe someday...), and I would continue shooting even if I had to shoot in Open because I love to shoot the courses (even if not competitively) - but I am aware that my gun is not really a good fit anywhere.  For me it doesn't matter, for other prople it might.

My suggestion would be that instead of adding another division, change Production.  Since most of these SS's are production guns, that seems the logical place.  Production could be converted into a 10 round max/minor scoring and 8 round max/major scoring division (or something like that), with appropiate PF's.  Drop the unenforced "no SA only guns" ( Glocks are DA?) and some of the other silly restrictions ( like the one concerning my $20 grips that changed my gun to "limited"), and SS .45's have a home.

Just my $.02 (or less?) worth.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ok, we could change Production to to include SS 8rd guns, OR

You could spend $96.80(plus shipping) and get yourself 5 CM 10rd mags from Chuck at Shooters Connection.

http://shootersconnection.com/store/produc...?products_id=47

There you go, perfect Limited 10 gun!

[richardschennberg]

I personally would prefer Standard-8 (IPSC Standard, restricted to 8 rounds in all magazines after LAMR). This is a seperate issue than Single-stack 1911, which could be a special category or provisional/voluntary division regarless of whether we keep L-10 and Production or switch to something else.

I see local matches that have to few shooters to recognize classifications in L-10 and Production, so that only a couple A, M, or GM shooters have a chance of winning the match or an annual series. Reducing the number of division by one, and creating one that exactly fits most factory orignial firearms, would help bring the shooting population closer to Open and Limited.

I suggest Standard-8 because:

1. It fits within the international rules.

2. Most mass produced guns are legal and have at least 8-round capacity with factory original or at least factory-length magazines.

3. Civilian, LEO, military, US, Canadian, California, Hawaii, Missouri, basically everyone gets gear on the same terms. You can buy a $3,000 custom gun but a beat up used gun is still a contender in the hands of a good shooter.

3. It does not matter whether your gun is single-stack or double-stack. There is no significant advantage. You shoot with the gun you already own (great for new shooters) or you buy a slim or fat gun based on your preference.

Richard

Schennberg.com

[GeorgeInNePa]

I personally would prefer Standard-8 (IPSC Standard, restricted to 8 rounds in all magazines after LAMR).  This is a seperate issue than Single-stack 1911, which could be a special category or provisional/voluntary division regarless of whether we keep L-10 and Production or switch to something else.

I see local matches that have to few shooters to recognize classifications in L-10 and Production, so that only a couple A, M, or GM shooters have a chance of winning the match or an annual series.  Reducing the number of division by one, and creating one that exactly fits most factory orignial firearms, would help bring the shooting population closer to Open and Limited.

I suggest Standard-8 because:

1.  It fits within the international rules.

2.  Most mass produced guns are legal and have at least 8-round capacity with factory original or at least factory-length magazines.

3.  Civilian, LEO, military, US, Canadian, California, Hawaii, Missouri, basically everyone gets gear on the same terms.  You can buy a $3,000 custom gun but a beat up used gun is still a contender in the hands of a good shooter.

3.  It does not matter whether your gun is single-stack or double-stack.  There is no significant advantage.  You shoot with the gun you already own (great for new shooters) or you buy a slim or fat gun based on your preference.

Richard

Schennberg.com

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So let me get this straight, you want to get rid of BOTH Production and Limited 10 and replace them with a new Standard 8, is that right?

So it will comform to international rules? 99.99% of USPSA shooters will NEVER shoot a match outside of our region.

[eric nielsen]

It seems that different areas of the country have different breakdowns in the divisions people will shoot in. Phil says he fills matches with 80% shooting L10 or Production. Other areas are heavier into Limited, it is that way here.

L8 sounds promising. If you could convince all 772 revolver shooters [who don't already have one] to bring an 8-shot wheel gun, then we need just 4 divisions. If there was some simple rule on the max width of semi-auto magwells in "L8" - that might quiet a lot of the discontent too. To compel STI shooters to use only the factory well, for instance, and leave room for a normal SS magwell. You all could argue about the gear positioning.

USPSA summary

Since I first joined there’s been something like 44000 member numbers issued. And yet we have less than 15000 on the books now. My humble opinion: A lot of the people now arguing on this forum will not be members of uspsa in five years, but a hunch tells me that they’ll still be arguing. Arguing about something, with someone.

[richardschennberg]

Actually, I would like IPSC to create Standard-8. Match organizers anywhere in the world would be free to recognize this Division. Only if it catches on would it be worth revisiting L-10. The number of single-stack shooters, states and countries that restrict magazine capacity, and major match sponsors such as Springfield and Smith & Wesson, all create a very favorable environment for Standard-8 to be very popular if adapted.

Richard

Schennberg.com