zodiac Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 Also make a fine or any damage caused by use of banned ammo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EaZeNuTZ33 Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 If there are 20 targets on a stage and someone misses all of them AND times out, they get 380 sec. Longer than stage DQ. You should try to make a stage DQ zero points and not a time, for pts per stage.Max time regardless of penalties and timeout is 300 sec. Unless of course the general consensus is let the shooter eat all penalties on top of time out. Either way it won't affect the top 75% of shooters. Then a stage DQ is no penalty worse than a broken gun, or bad shooting...Just saying... Good point. 600 sec. More appropriate? If you're doing points per stage, I think that making a Did not Fire or DQ worth zero points is more appropriate. If total time with no points per stage, then 600 seconds would be a solid crash and burn...but then 300 should be the most you can get on a stage with a broken gun or what have you... Just depends on how you plan to score it. Total time is the main problem with having a stage DQ IMO......determining the right amount of pain necessary is purely subjective. If 300 is too little, 600 too much, 450 is just right? I do remember someone saying something along the lines of...there is no safe, unsafe, and slightly less unsafe/safe....it's either safe or not. For a game, I'm not sure I'm 100% in agreement since we can argue where the treshold from safe to unsafe lies in the game, or world in general. I could argue that a loaded/chambered gun that is vertically in a dump barrel with safety off is safe until someone screws with it.....after all, I have to click the safety OFF on my 2011 to rack the slide right? A range we shot at last year required ALL guns to be completely EMPTY to be abandoned, regardless of safety condition. They weren't in line with other matches and have changes their rules now, but the clubs opinion on a SAFE gun was a completely empty gun. Perhaps instead of giving a blanket stage DQ time for a certain action, access a time penalty of X number of seconds for what would be the stage DQ, and assess it to the shooter's stage time. Now you can assess a 100 (200? 300?) second penalty for the infraction, in addition to the 55.55 second stage they shot up to that point and 200 seconds in penalties they received for the targets remaining when they were stopped from continuing the course of fire. Just something that popped into my head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EaZeNuTZ33 Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 I would make safety violations non arbitrary, RO's DQs are final and strike any notion of RO interference for ever touching a shooter's firearm. Couldn't disagree with this more personally. I watched a shooter get DQ'd for a 180 violation at a recent match when he clearly was NOT breaking 180.....after arguing it with the RM TWICE and bringing video evidence from a head mounted Go-Pro, the shooter was given a reshoot and DQ was reversed. If the RM was completely unwilling to budge when evidence was in front of him, because as you put it "RO DQs are final"... I would feel 100% justified in asking for arbitration. I agree with you on the RO interference. I would go even further and ask that scoring RO clear the guns in dump barrels behind the shooter unless there is a problem with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zodiac Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 (edited) I would make safety violations non arbitrary, RO's DQs are final and strike any notion of RO interference for ever touching a shooter's firearm.Couldn't disagree with this more personally. I watched a shooter get DQ'd for a 180 violation at a recent match when he clearly was NOT breaking 180.....after arguing it with the RM TWICE and bringing video evidence from a head mounted Go-Pro, the shooter was given a reshoot and DQ was reversed. If the RM was completely unwilling to budge when evidence was in front of him, because as you put it "RO DQs are final"... I would feel 100% justified in asking for arbitration.I agree with you on the RO interference. I would go even further and ask that scoring RO clear the guns in dump barrels behind the shooter unless there is a problem with it. I could see that being a issue with the 180 rule but stage design should provide a buffer making a 180 violation obvious. I have in fact been DQed by a RM who was 100 yards away for breaking 180 when he thought my mag was the muzzle while clearing my pistol. Edited September 17, 2014 by zodiac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EaZeNuTZ33 Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 A guy in my squad thought he saw another shooter load his shotgun and put it in the back of his truck for the next stage at a match, he went over to let the guy know he could get in trouble for it only to find out it wasn't loaded and the guy did everything right. If it would have been the RM or MD that thought they saw it, it could have been a "sorry, all DQs are final" because they can't reverse that DQ and refuse to reverse another if it's proved wrong or could possibly be wrong in the eyes of a committy of fellow shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EaZeNuTZ33 Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 Personally....I hate the concept of having to pay $100 for the arbitration process. In essence, it's a financial barrier to keep people from asking to verify that they are right. If the person was right, they gambled money to find out and should never have been put thru the process to begin with (in a perfect world)...if the person is wrong, they are still DQ'd from the match or stage, still lose that target, or still don't get that reshoot...therefore still beng punished without having to fork out $100 in additonal punishment. As for the sentence "the commission of the infraction may not be protested" Does this mean that someone cannot argue that they did not break 180, only argue that 181 degrees on that stage is safe? Arguing that an AD or ND that left the range is nearly impossible to argue IMO, but I could see someone arguing whether something was an AD or burning a round into a berm and whether it was past "x" feet from the shooter tho. If you cannot argue something was an AD, only that it was an AD into a safe direction, there's no point in arbitration at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zodiac Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 I guess my point was that safety violation calls on a COF should be made by the ROs. Both ROs in agreement makes the call, if not, the benefit goes to the shooter. I also think the arbitration fee doesn't make since. Blow a hole in a $400 MGM target and get a stage DQ, contest a call and pay $100. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.Schmitt Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 You will need to plug dq's into you scoring program and test the numbers. 300 even 600 will still afford that shooter stage points. Jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul-the new guy Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 8.16 Static Steel targets require 2 hits to neutralize. Rifle hits will be called. Pistol static steel will be painted after each shooter So, slug steels will have to be hit twice? 8.5 Knock down style targets (i.e. poppers or steel) MUST FALL to score. Is there a callibration procedure? 8.9 Engaging a frangible, knock-down or swinging style target but not breaking it, knocking it down or causing the target to react (FTN), will result in a 10 second penalty per target. What if a frangible target is knocked from a stand but it doesn't break, is that scored as a hit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoganbillJ Posted September 17, 2014 Author Share Posted September 17, 2014 Also make a fine or any damage caused by use of banned ammo. Agreed, Will add that to the rules. I would make safety violations non arbitrary, RO's DQs are final and strike any notion of RO interference for ever touching a shooter's firearm. Couldn't disagree with this more personally. I watched a shooter get DQ'd for a 180 violation at a recent match when he clearly was NOT breaking 180.....after arguing it with the RM TWICE and bringing video evidence from a head mounted Go-Pro, the shooter was given a reshoot and DQ was reversed. If the RM was completely unwilling to budge when evidence was in front of him, because as you put it "RO DQs are final"... I would feel 100% justified in asking for arbitration. I agree with you on the RO interference. I would go even further and ask that scoring RO clear the guns in dump barrels behind the shooter unless there is a problem with it. All DQ's will be finalized by the RM/MD. RO will make the initial call. RM/MD will issue the DQ. As far as I am concerned RO's cannot interfere with the shooters guns. It is there job to ensure safety on the range thus allowing them to check the condition of the safety.. If there is an RO who would purposely change the condition of a gun for his/her or another competitors benefit I don't want them on my range or any range for that matter. You will need to plug dq's into you scoring program and test the numbers. 300 even 600 will still afford that shooter stage points. Jay That is one thing that is a problem. If doing points how do you plug that into practiscore so the shooter is penalized enough when using the points system? I have not found a way to give the shooter zero points while still allowing them to continue and shoot the match. 8.16 Static Steel targets require 2 hits to neutralize. Rifle hits will be called. Pistol static steel will be painted after each shooter So, slug steels will have to be hit twice? 8.5 Knock down style targets (i.e. poppers or steel) MUST FALL to score. Is there a callibration procedure? 8.9 Engaging a frangible, knock-down or swinging style target but not breaking it, knocking it down or causing the target to react (FTN), will result in a 10 second penalty per target. What if a frangible target is knocked from a stand but it doesn't break, is that scored as a hit? Forgot about slugs. One hit. Calibration procedure also needs to be added. Frangible targets that fall off the stand are considered neutralized. Thanks for your help guys. Keep them coming. We want this match to be a match for shooters by shooters. I will make revisions and repost the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outsydlooknin75 Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 If you are using practiscore there is a DNF button that you can use on the bottom left it gives a 0 for the stage but does not 0 for the match Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoganbillJ Posted September 17, 2014 Author Share Posted September 17, 2014 If you are using practiscore there is a DNF button that you can use on the bottom left it gives a 0 for the stage but does not 0 for the match Awesome thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiggerJJ Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 (edited) 8.16 Static Steel targets require 2 hits to neutralize. Rifle hits will be called. Pistol static steel will be painted after each shooter. Why 2 hits on static steel? goes against all other forms of action shooting. just one hit per should be good. And you are "painting" yourself into a corner requiring pistol steel to painted after each shooter, shouldn't really need to... jmho jj eta; and conspicuously missing is the main scoring system...100 point stages? total time? Comstock? Horner? maybe you haven't decided yet... Edited September 17, 2014 by RiggerJJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.Schmitt Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 Take a run over to www.mn3gungroup.org and look at our rules. Our stage dq info may give you some more options. For some reason I cant cut and paste. There seems to be so much new stuff on the forum for rules and safety. I would hold a RO brief and outline expectations on those topics that really come out and show themselves on a particular stage. Example, on natural terrain, the 180 may be difficult to define. Work over in advance how the floating 180 will work. jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EaZeNuTZ33 Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 8.16 Static Steel targets require 2 hits to neutralize. Rifle hits will be called. Pistol static steel will be painted after each shooter. Why 2 hits on static steel? goes against all other forms of action shooting. just one hit per should be good. And you are "painting" yourself into a corner requiring pistol steel to painted after each shooter, shouldn't really need to... jmho jj eta; and conspicuously missing is the main scoring system...100 point stages? total time? Comstock? Horner? maybe you haven't decided yet... This was how we always shot steel AC zones and static steel in this part of the state, especially at the CMMG monthly matches we used to attend......personally, I'm not a fan either. There are enough people that can double tap steel fast enough that you cannot tell if it was one hit or two, and if you want two hits...put paper out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoganbillJ Posted September 17, 2014 Author Share Posted September 17, 2014 8.16 Static Steel targets require 2 hits to neutralize. Rifle hits will be called. Pistol static steel will be painted after each shooter. Why 2 hits on static steel? goes against all other forms of action shooting. just one hit per should be good. And you are "painting" yourself into a corner requiring pistol steel to painted after each shooter, shouldn't really need to... jmho jj eta; and conspicuously missing is the main scoring system...100 point stages? total time? Comstock? Horner? maybe you haven't decided yet... This was how we always shot steel AC zones and static steel in this part of the state, especially at the CMMG monthly matches we used to attend......personally, I'm not a fan either. There are enough people that can double tap steel fast enough that you cannot tell if it was one hit or two, and if you want two hits...put paper out there. Dillen is exactly right. It was the way we have been shooting it for years. Just adopted it. Not a problem changing it. As for scoring we haven't decided 100% yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoganbillJ Posted September 17, 2014 Author Share Posted September 17, 2014 Take a run over to www.mn3gungroup.org and look at our rules. Our stage dq info may give you some more options. For some reason I cant cut and paste. There seems to be so much new stuff on the forum for rules and safety. I would hold a RO brief and outline expectations on those topics that really come out and show themselves on a particular stage. Example, on natural terrain, the 180 may be difficult to define. Work over in advance how the floating 180 will work. jay I will check them out. We plan on having the RO's shoot early. Briefing them that day as well have them RO the stage they will be running. I have been monitoring the forums pretty closely as far as rules go, to try and adopt the new trends. Also to see problems that may arise in our match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiggerJJ Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 I agree with Dillen, "There are enough people that can double tap steel fast enough that you cannot tell if it was one hit or two, and if you want two hits...put paper out there" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoganbillJ Posted September 17, 2014 Author Share Posted September 17, 2014 Here are the updated rules. I think I have fixed all the holes you guys have found other than the scoring system that will be used. We are still kicking that around but will decide shortly. Thanks again for all your help! Match Rules.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiggerJJ Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 Matt, couple of little things; 6.1.1.2 could be dropped totally. it is Open division... No reason to restrict pistol mag length to 170mm if the Open shotgun and rifle are not restricted. go ahead an put that +5 on a 170, why not? and I have seen a 50 round drum... 6.2.1.2, etc I know ours says the same, but the only way to measure accurately is with the mag gauge, which is 41.25mm I believe... 6.4.2.4 might want to put a max caliber like 30.06, and even an 06 can really smack steel. hate to see a piece of steel hit with a 338 Lapua at 150 yards...highly unlikely anyone would use one, but... 8.2.2 did you really mean to give the same penalty (10 seconds) for no holes OR 1 non-A/B? the original IMGA rules have a single non-A/B on paper as a 5 second Failure To Neutralize (FTN) penalty. Usually a 10 second penalty is called a miss, NO holes on a paper or un-hit steel. 8.10 and 8.11 seem redundant... jmho... jj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustinT Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 Full power slugs for heavy is kinda harsh. I'd have to figure out where they shot out of my gun before I went to the match, in addition. IDPA targets don't have A or D zones, the criteria for neutralizing should be listed. I don't know what an SOF target looks like, and I can imagine how to neutralize a zombie target, but that should be listed as well. Power factor should be stated for steel calibration for rifle and pistol. Are you calibrating with Hornady 75gr Superformance or Wolf Underpowered 55gr Blaster Ammo? Are you calibrating with WWB 115gr or 147gr +P Gold Dots? Makes a difference. 3 dram 1 1/8 oz is a little heavy to be used for calibration, and the calibration choke should be listed as well (Cyl is best). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoganbillJ Posted September 19, 2014 Author Share Posted September 19, 2014 (edited) Matt, couple of little things; 6.1.1.2 could be dropped totally. it is Open division... No reason to restrict pistol mag length to 170mm if the Open shotgun and rifle are not restricted. go ahead an put that +5 on a 170, why not? and I have seen a 50 round drum... 6.2.1.2, etc I know ours says the same, but the only way to measure accurately is with the mag gauge, which is 41.25mm I believe... 6.4.2.4 might want to put a max caliber like 30.06, and even an 06 can really smack steel. hate to see a piece of steel hit with a 338 Lapua at 150 yards...highly unlikely anyone would use one, but... 8.2.2 did you really mean to give the same penalty (10 seconds) for no holes OR 1 non-A/B? the original IMGA rules have a single non-A/B on paper as a 5 second Failure To Neutralize (FTN) penalty. Usually a 10 second penalty is called a miss, NO holes on a paper or un-hit steel. 8.10 and 8.11 seem redundant... jmho... jj Matt is my dad (toothandnail). I am Josh. Either way doesn't matter. 6.1.1.2 and 6.2.1.2 As for open mag length it is something that is always in the rules and I feel the same as you. Open is open. There really shouldn't be any restriction. Many of the rules(In everyones rule books), are just there because they have always been. I also agree that unless there is a mag gauge there is no real good way to ensure everyone is following the rules. It just goes on the honor system. 6.4.2.4 Good idea on max caliber. I have shot a few of our rifle flashers with my 300 WM, but only at 350+. 8.2.2 We have always shot that way around here. I guess just something else that has been adopted. It makes for easier scoring in the event that someone really bombs a stage. 8.10 and 8.11 are redundant. Not sure why they are both there. Thanks JJ. Full power slugs for heavy is kinda harsh. I'd have to figure out where they shot out of my gun before I went to the match, in addition. IDPA targets don't have A or D zones, the criteria for neutralizing should be listed. I don't know what an SOF target looks like, and I can imagine how to neutralize a zombie target, but that should be listed as well. Power factor should be stated for steel calibration for rifle and pistol. Are you calibrating with Hornady 75gr Superformance or Wolf Underpowered 55gr Blaster Ammo? Are you calibrating with WWB 115gr or 147gr +P Gold Dots? Makes a difference. 3 dram 1 1/8 oz is a little heavy to be used for calibration, and the calibration choke should be listed as well (Cyl is best). Full Power slugs is something that was adopted from other rule sets. I guess it goes along the lines to sticking to the heavy side? But at the same time it doesn't make sense that you could technically use Win AA 980fps low noise/recoil rds as they are not restricted. Very good point, will be changed. We will only be using USPSA targets so I will change the rules to reflect that. Full and half size. I agree on the calibration ammo used. It does need to be specified. As for shotgun calibration, how does that come into play with a knock down plate that is 30 yards away? I promise you won't knock it down with cylinder. Should there be a special note on the stage brief stating what will take it off? Something that I have always wondered about but never asked. Thanks for your input Austin. Edited September 19, 2014 by LoganbillJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustinT Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 Yeah, you're right. Maybe a LM choke and a 1 oz load would be a better way to start, and any exceptions should be noted? I'm not sure how to go about shotgun, Kurt and Trapr would be a good resource. I believe they calibrated every target for the High Plains shotgun matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiggerJJ Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 Josh, I knew that you were you, just fergot... We dropped the 170mm requirement for Open pistol mags from RM3G rules 2-3 years ago. Made sense to us... The 8.2.2 FTN thing. Ask Tim Ubl why its around your neck of the woods...He will tell you that when he was writing the rules for the DPMS match (2003, 04?), he FORGOT to put the real FTN penalty it in. Then a few years later, CMMG adopted that rule set...and then it spread further... The original FTN in IMGA is/was 5 seconds, and is that way now in most matches not around your area that were not derived from the DPMS rule set... I agree with the reasoning that the shooter should get some credit for hitting the target with one round even thou its not an A/B, kinda of a 1/2 penalty from the full penalty of 10 seconds for a miss, so that may be how the Failure to Neutralize was born. You will see a FTN as 5 seconds in our ruleset and Superstition's...And BRM3G scoring is a 5 second penalty for only one hit on paper. Yea, the full pop slugs, (holy cow! how did I miss that? ) probably not a way to go, unless you want to crono all the HM shooters...then like you say, what about birdshot? or rifle at 360PF? pistol 170? looking forward to coming and shooting with you guys! jj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoganbillJ Posted September 19, 2014 Author Share Posted September 19, 2014 Dropping mag restriction makes sense to me too. I noticed Gen III was setup that way but never understood why. Makes sense that it was originally left out and just widely adopted in the Midwest. Guess I have a few more adjustments to make tomorrow when I get in to work. Looking forward to having you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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