bessy Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Hey guys, I've had a stock II in 9mm for about a year. The trigger was done by jim bodkins at shooter ready. I noticed something at my match tonight when I was dry firing at the safety table. If i ride my safety (press on it with my thumb) in single action... sometimes the hammer only falls to half cock. While I haven't had this happen to me in a match yet, I'm worried the problem may materialize at a major which would be bad. I can't seem to reproduce the issue in double action... only single action. It only occurs when I push forcefully with my strong hand thumb on the safety,. Any ideas where I should start with regards to trouble shooting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Put some more over travel in the trigger and retest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nealio Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 ^^^^^^^^^ this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bessy Posted August 21, 2014 Author Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) Put some more over travel in the trigger and retest. So by put more do you mean, make the over travel more generous... or less generous. I'm assuming this is stemming from my over travel screw being screwed in too far and I need to back it out. Thereby increasing my over travel. I'll give it shot and let you know. Edited August 21, 2014 by bessy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bessy Posted August 21, 2014 Author Share Posted August 21, 2014 I backed the overtravel screw all the way out. I can still make the issue happen. Hammer is stopping at half cock, and I can feel a small jolt in the safety when the malfunction occurs. Any ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Do this. Take the slide off the gun, then take the sear cage out of the frame. Reinstall the safety so you can observe how the plunger in the safety engages the detents in the frame. There should be two distinct positions where the plunger rests into (Safe position and Fire position). Recreate your additional safety pressure condition and observe the position of the plunger. Is it going past the "Fire" detent, basically creating an over rotated safety condition? If that is the case you need to make some changes to the detent in the frame so the plunger can't be pushed beyond that point. Another thing to look at is the large round portion of the safety that seats into the left side of the frame. The top of that rounded portion is cut off to make room for the rail in the slide. If you excessively over rotate the safety lever the edge of the rounded portion on the safety can push up against the underside of the slide rail. This is also easily observed by looking down the rail notch in the frame from the back side of the gun, then holding down the safety and see if any of the rounded portion of the safety comes up into the rail notch. You may have to take some additional material off the rounded portion to keep the safety from pushing up into the slide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bessy Posted August 21, 2014 Author Share Posted August 21, 2014 Do this. Take the slide off the gun, then take the sear cage out of the frame. Reinstall the safety so you can observe how the plunger in the safety engages the detents in the frame. There should be two distinct positions where the plunger rests into (Safe position and Fire position). Recreate your additional safety pressure condition and observe the position of the plunger. Is it going past the "Fire" detent, basically creating an over rotated safety condition? If that is the case you need to make some changes to the detent in the frame so the plunger can't be pushed beyond that point. Another thing to look at is the large round portion of the safety that seats into the left side of the frame. The top of that rounded portion is cut off to make room for the rail in the slide. If you excessively over rotate the safety lever the edge of the rounded portion on the safety can push up against the underside of the slide rail. This is also easily observed by looking down the rail notch in the frame from the back side of the gun, then holding down the safety and see if any of the rounded portion of the safety comes up into the rail notch. You may have to take some additional material off the rounded portion to keep the safety from pushing up into the slide. CHA -LEE thanks for the info. I cleaned everything out last night, and started investigating. The Interaction between the slide and safety seems a very promising avenue of investigation, as I can't seem to reproduce the issue when the slide is removed from the frame. I'm also running jims firing pin, so I'm wondering if there could be something wonky with interaction between firing pin block, and firing pin and FCG. I may not get to it tonight but I will investigate as time allows, and report back when I have new data. Thanks a ton! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) You could have a situation where the hammer is in fact falling all the way down onto the firing pin, then bouncing back to half cock. This is easily checked by doing the Pencil test. Put a pencil into the barrel so the rubber end is resting against the breach face where the firing pin would strike it. Then recreate the hammer falling to half cock scenario. If the Pencil flys out or even moves forward you know the firing pin is striking the eraser and the failure mode is the bouncing back to half cock after it hits the firing pin. Edited August 21, 2014 by CHA-LEE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bessy Posted August 21, 2014 Author Share Posted August 21, 2014 You could have a situation where the hammer is in fact falling all the way down onto the firing pin, then bouncing back to half cock. This is easily checked by doing the Pencil test. Put a pencil into the barrel so the rubber end is resting against the breach face where the firing pin would strike it. Then recreate the hammer falling to half cock scenario. If the Pencil flys out or even moves forward you know the firing pin is striking the eraser and the failure mode is the bouncing back to half cock after it hits the firing pin. I've used the pencil test before.... I should have really thought to try that. I don't think that it's the case.. but at least now I can verify my assumption. ~Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeerBaron Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 just to confirm with the overtravel thing (I wasn't 100% sure of your description). you need to turn it anti clockwise (when looking from the muzzle end of the gun to the trigger) thus shortening the amount of screw sticking out the back of the trigger. it sounds like you may have done this, I just wasn't 100% sure from your description. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB38Super Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 This is one of the few faults of this gun design. On some guns, they develop just enough slack (excess clearance) in the sear cage to frame fit to cause goofy issues like this. You will only notice it when two things happen: you actually move the sear cage by placing a lot of pressure on the thumb safety and you very precisely (ie, slowly) depress the trigger. It alters the geometry just enough that the hammer catches the half cock on the hammer. In a match, you are more forceful with trigger press and it doesn't happen. The jolt you feel is the hammer hitting the sear which is mounted in the sear cage of course. The fix? Multiple paths and all involve changing some parts Easiest is install new sear cage, sear and hammer (and possibly safety). Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeerBaron Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 that makes a lot of sense! Thanks for that Jim. I know henning I think it was mentioned he fitted his sear cages by building up the area in the frame that it sits in and then doing a file fit. I can't remember if he welded the area up or just used jb weld or something similar. it's a shame the sear cage fit can be hit and miss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saratoga Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 The cheap fix, (for the DIY men) one can put a little weld on the side of the sear cage and do a file fit. This way it is only the searcage that is scrap when something happpens during "material build up" process. Will try to find one of my old welded sear cages and post a pic during the weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nealio Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 Sounds like the 1/2 cock hook wasn't shortened enough maybe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bessy Posted August 22, 2014 Author Share Posted August 22, 2014 (edited) This is one of the few faults of this gun design. On some guns, they develop just enough slack (excess clearance) in the sear cage to frame fit to cause goofy issues like this. You will only notice it when two things happen: you actually move the sear cage by placing a lot of pressure on the thumb safety and you very precisely (ie, slowly) depress the trigger. It alters the geometry just enough that the hammer catches the half cock on the hammer. In a match, you are more forceful with trigger press and it doesn't happen. The jolt you feel is the hammer hitting the sear which is mounted in the sear cage of course. The fix? Multiple paths and all involve changing some parts Easiest is install new sear cage, sear and hammer (and possibly safety). Jim Hey jim, I was just going to give you a call, and here you come to the rescue. As I mentioned earlier I haven't yet had it happen in match. I guess my primary concern was that it would work loose and become a common occurrence. Right now I really have to try to make it happen, and even then it doesn't happen every time. I really like the trigger you did for me... so id rather not swap out all the parts. I take it that swapping out just the sear cage isn't going to jive, and that the sear and hammer will all need to be fit to the new cage? Any chance I could shorten the 1/2 cock hammer hooks?.. I have a set of feeler gauges, so if you let me know what they should be at I can check them. I'm on vacation next week, so I won't have time to screw around with anything, I'll try to get in touch with you when I get back. Edited August 22, 2014 by bessy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB38Super Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 No problem Give me a call and I'll go over the options. Too many and too long to cover here. And I don't want to let too much detail out in a public forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saratoga Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 And for the DIY guys out there with sloppy sear cage fits here are two pics on one way to solve the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bessy Posted October 2, 2014 Author Share Posted October 2, 2014 If anyone is wondering how I solved this.. here is how. After a conversation with jim, we went over my options. I ended up shorting up the sear leg by a small amount, this seemed to do the trick, I can no longer reproduce the problem. Anyone have a spare sear cage lying around? I'd like to have one in my back pocket in case the issue returns. ~Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmoodybmf Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 I have the same issue. Silly question, which part is the sear leg? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmoodybmf Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Thanks to Jim on another post I found out what the sear leg is. Next question what did you use to shorten it? How much did you remove? I believe I have a harden sear from EGW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeerBaron Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 before you do anything, make sure it's not the hammer bouncing back to half cock. that is a common problem when running the henning/egw hammer and sear and has a different fix for it. stick a pencil down the barrel, point UNLOADED gun up in the are and fire it. does hammer just fall ot half cock and nothing happens or does pencil shoot out and hammer ends on the half cock? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmoodybmf Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 I saw that in another post and was hoping that was the case, but unfortunately not. if falls to half cock pencil does not shoot out. Thank you though Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nealio Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 I saw that in another post and was hoping that was the case, but unfortunately not. if falls to half cock pencil does not shoot out. Thank you though Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Have you checked the clearance on the 1/2 cock notch? Put your thumb on the hammer, pull the trigger back all the way, and slowly let the hammer down and see if the sear clears the 1/2 cock notch, or catches on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmoodybmf Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Yes sir and it clears. I think I may have fixed the problem. I think. I have 2 limiteds, I switched out the sear cage/sear in them and I can no longer recreate the problem in either gun. Safety engages properly and they both pass the pencil test. Any drawbacks? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB38Super Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 If it runs, roll with it Fyi, sear leg is the small leg on the left side of sear that hangs down and is pushed by trigger bar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now