No weak hand reloads

[MAdler]

So rule 6.21 states that "6.21 No "weak-hand only' reloading shall be permitted. Exception: See Permanently Physically Disabled Shooters' section".

Does that mean a stage that has a combination of strong hand/weak hand/Freestyle shooting in a single string where the reload happens during the weak handed shooting, the shooter can be forced to switch the firearm back to the strong hand for the reload, and then back to the weak hand to finish the stage? See the attached stage

2014 STATE MATCH STAGES 3.pdf

[alma]

Lots of switching hands back and forth is generally a bad idea because it introduces many more opportunities for safety issues.

Unfortunately the rule book really doesn't define what "weak-hand only" reloading is so I assume you will have a lot of interpretations.

IMHO the rulebook should also be more specific in prohibiting both strong and weak-hand shooting together in a single string.

This stage does have some issues.

Strong hand and weak hand shooting usually simulates the incapacitation of a limb so forcing both strong hand and weak hand in the same stage makes no sense.

What makes even less sense is starting with the strong/weak hand like this stages does and finishing with freestyle.

One simple way to make this stage more in line with both the rules and common sense is to start the shooter with the Freestyle shooting.

For all SSP, ESP, etc shooters will be reloading while they are still in the strong hand portion of the course.

Another better option is to separate strong hand and weak-hand portions of the stage into different strings.

Edited August 18, 2014 by alma

[Rob Tompkins]

So rule 6.21 states that "6.21 No "weak-hand only' reloading shall be permitted. Exception: See Permanently Physically Disabled Shooters' section".

Does that mean a stage that has a combination of strong hand/weak hand/Freestyle shooting in a single string where the reload happens during the weak handed shooting, the shooter can be forced to switch the firearm back to the strong hand for the reload, and then back to the weak hand to finish the stage? See the attached stage

Yes. Shooter either switches hands to reload OR perform a Loaded Chamber Reload (a.k.a. Tac Reload or Reload w/ Retention) before the strong-to-weak hand reload.

[rowdyb]

Yep I always took it to mean you couldn't be forced to do a weak hand reload but if you chose to do it, no problem. I chose to do one myself in a state match just this weekend.

[Rob Tompkins]

Lots of switching hands back and forth is generally a bad idea because it introduces many more opportunities for safety issues.

Unfortunately the rule book really doesn't define what "weak-hand only" reloading is so I assume you will have a lot of interpretations.

IMHO the rulebook should also be more specific in prohibiting both strong and weak-hand shooting together in a single string.

This stage does have some issues.

Strong hand and weak hand shooting usually simulates the incapacitation of a limb so forcing both strong hand and weak hand in the same stage makes no sense.

What makes even less sense is starting with the strong/weak hand like this stages does and finishing with freestyle.

One simple way to make this stage more in line with both the rules and common sense is to start the shooter with the Freestyle shooting.

For all SSP, ESP, etc shooters will be reloading while they are still in the strong hand portion of the course.

Another better option is to separate strong hand and weak-hand portions of the stage into different strings.

Since this is a Limtied Vickers scored stage with no required concelment I can only assume this is intened to be a "skills" test and not simulating some possible scienario. The skills that seem to be under test is strong-weak had transitions and strong-weak hand shooting.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Rob Tompkins

[Marshal82]

Yes that is correct. You can reload any way you wish at any time you wish during that stage. I see this pretty often but with the order being any way the shooter wants. If you had to shoot in that order I would either do 2 retention reloads in between the sets or do a fancy left handed reload. This stage is a good test of gun handling skills.

[Rob Tompkins]

Yep I always took it to mean you couldn't be forced to do a weak hand reload but if you chose to do it, no problem. I chose to do one myself in a state match just this weekend.

To me the operative word is "permitted" not "required" thus "no 'weak-hand' loading permitted" means you can't do it.

I've not looked but is there a rule clairification that states otherwilse?

Edited August 18, 2014 by Rob Tompkins

[alma]

Lots of switching hands back and forth is generally a bad idea because it introduces many more opportunities for safety issues.

Unfortunately the rule book really doesn't define what "weak-hand only" reloading is so I assume you will have a lot of interpretations.

IMHO the rulebook should also be more specific in prohibiting both strong and weak-hand shooting together in a single string.

This stage does have some issues.

Strong hand and weak hand shooting usually simulates the incapacitation of a limb so forcing both strong hand and weak hand in the same stage makes no sense.

What makes even less sense is starting with the strong/weak hand like this stages does and finishing with freestyle.

One simple way to make this stage more in line with both the rules and common sense is to start the shooter with the Freestyle shooting.

For all SSP, ESP, etc shooters will be reloading while they are still in the strong hand portion of the course.

Another better option is to separate strong hand and weak-hand portions of the stage into different strings.

Since this is a Limtied Vickers scored stage with no required concelment I can only assume this is intened to be a "skills" test and not simulating some possible scienario. The skills that seem to be under test is strong-weak had transitions and strong-weak hand shooting.

Given that it is not a scenario then just require the freestyle headshots up front (I understand headshots then body shots wouldn't make as much sense in a scenario) and then move to the strong-hand/weak-hand requirements.

Having the reload fall during the strong-hand portion of the shooting will significantly reduce the fumble factor and remove and remaining doubt about legality.

[Marshal82]

Yep I always took it to mean you couldn't be forced to do a weak hand reload but if you chose to do it, no problem. I chose to do one myself in a state match just this weekend.

To me the operative word is "permitted" not "required" thus "no 'weak-hand' loading permitted" means you can't do it.

I've not looked but is there a rule clairification that states otherwilse?

The "only" is the tricky part, no "weak hand only" reloads. If you tried you would break the muzzle safe points or another safety rule by doing so. You may keep the gun in the weak hand and reload with the strong hand, or switch it back and forth.

I've seen week handed reloading at 2 major matches this year, but they never said "only" the gun just had to stay in the weak hand.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Marshal82

[alma]

It's unfortunate that the IDPA rulebook is so ambiguous on so many issues.

Who knows what the actual intent of the rulebook author was but I find it interesting that the language used on 6.21 is much stronger than the language used on 6.19 or 6.21.

Specifically it says in 6.19 and 6.20 that you cannot require a shooter to engage weak-hand/strong-hand only targets past specified distances however the language clearly would allow the shooter to take shots further back if they choose to take that option.

6.21 however clearly says that no weak-hand reloading "shall be permitted," not no weak-hand reloading "may be required."

This should be taken to mean that shooters are prohibited from performing weak-hand only reloads regardless of whether or not it was their choice.

6.19. No “strong-hand only” strings of fire may require the shooter to engage targets more than ten (10) yards distant.

6.20. No “weak-hand only” strings of fire may require the shooter to engage targets more than seven (7) yards distant.

6.21. No “weak-hand only” reloading shall be permitted. Exception: See Permanently Physically Disabled Shooters section.

Edited August 18, 2014 by alma

[Rob Tompkins]

It's unfortunate that the IDPA rulebook is so ambiguous on so many issues.

Who knows what the actual intent of the rulebook author was but I find it interesting that the language used on 6.21 is much stronger than the language used on 6.19 or 6.21.

Specifically it says in 6.19 and 6.20 that you cannot require a shooter to engage weak-hand/strong-hand only targets past specified distances however the language clearly would allow the shooter to take shots further back if they choose to take that option.

6.21 however clearly says that no weak-hand reloading "shall be permitted," not no weak-hand reloading "may be required."

This should be taken to mean that shooters are prohibited from performing weak-hand only reloads regardless of whether or not it was their choice.

6.19. No “strong-hand only” strings of fire may require the shooter to engage targets more than ten (10) yards distant.

6.20. No “weak-hand only” strings of fire may require the shooter to engage targets more than seven (7) yards distant.

6.21. No “weak-hand only” reloading shall be permitted. Exception: See Permanently Physically Disabled Shooters section.

That's basically how I read it.

[Jim Watson]

Do we know what "only" means?

I just a couple of weeks ago found it convenient to do a weak hand reload during one of those mind game Standards.

But it wasn't a weak hand ONLY reload. The empty gun was in my left hand, with more weak hand shooting still to do. I punched the magazine catch with my left forefinger and inserted a fresh magazine with my right hand; yanked the slide to chamber a round. Just like a southpaw does normally.

[Rob Tompkins]

Rule 3.19.2 defines "weak hand only" as under the sole control of the non-dominate had. Holding the gun in your hand and inserting a mag with your strong hand is a "weak hand only" reload (opposite of strong hand only reload) - not permitted.

[wgj3]

As it reads, I'm inclined to think that Rob has this one right as it is written and it seems absurd.

[Jim Watson]

So "only" and "sole control" include the use of the other hand?

Bah, humbug.

One handed reloads were seen in the olden days of IPSC before they were dropped for delay of game by the racegunners, I know the difference between a weak hand reload and a weak hand ONLY reload. I would not care to have to demonstrate the latter, it is tough and I never practiced much.

[afoulk]

Seems to me they're trying to prevent MD's from requiring advanced reloading techniques that simulate total loss of use of the strong hand. I think it's also phrased that way to prevent people from practicing what they learned at their tactical training class on an IDPA CoF. My thought is that if you're equipped to not have to switch hands to reload with the gun in your weak hand and the magazine is inserted with the strong hand, cool beans. You might be required to keep an extra magazine stashed on your strong side for the whole match though based on your interpretation of a different rule (mix and match modes of carry rule).

[Rob Tompkins]

I just sent the attached to clarifications@idpa.com

I don't think what is prohibited is just one handed reloads but all reloads where the gun is held in the weak hand. However I acknowledge I may be wrong and instead of arguing the point, lets just get an official ruling.

rule question.doc

[Marshal82]

Rule 3.19.2 defines "weak hand only" as under the sole control of the non-dominate had. Holding the gun in your hand and inserting a mag with your strong hand is a "weak hand only" reload (opposite of strong hand only reload) - not permitted.

I would disagree. Here is the quote direct from the rule book:

"3.19.2. Weak/Support Hand Only: A denotation in a stage description indicating that only the weak or non-dominant hand, i.e., the shooter’s support hand, located on the opposite side of the body from the holster, can be used to control the firearm when a shot is fired. The strong (dominant) hand or arm must not touch the firearm or any location on the shooter’s weak (support) arm or hand when firing. For safety reasons, both hands may be used when clearing a malfunction."

This only talks about while the shooter is taking the shot, I don't see anything here about a reload. I would not call using your strong hand to reload a "weak hand only" reload. I would think a weak hand only reload means not touching your arm, gun, mag with the strong hand in attempting this the shooter would likely break a safety rule and that is why I believe there are no "weak hand only" reloads.

[Rob Tompkins]

I've sent a question to HQ and I'll go by their answer.

Given the ambigious nature fo the issue and the IDPA approach of shooter gets benifit of the doubt its not an issue for me until / unless HQ issues a clairification.

[alma]

I am curious to see the answer but in this you could avoid the confusion and improve safety by simply changing the shooting order.

[Jim Watson]

Well, it is intended as a brain game anyhow. Give the shooter every chance to lose his place in the order of engagement, including a reload where one definition of "only" would require you to swap hands to reload, then swap back to resume shooting.

[Butterpuc]

With this being a Limited Vickers stage... I'm surprised these aren't seperate strings of fire. That would eliminate the "weak hand reload". Top off after every string.

[alma]

With this being a Limited Vickers stage... I'm surprised these aren't seperate strings of fire. That would eliminate the "weak hand reload". Top off after every string.

But that wouldn't help with the primary objective on this stage which is apparently, "let see if we can screw up the shooter."

[afoulk]

Some of these stages get a lot simpler when you shoot a revolver. I like the choice that the stage seems to be forcing for autos. Which is faster/less likely to earn me a procedural? Tac Load after 2? Tac load after 6? Weak hand reload? Weak transfer to strong and standard reload then back to weak?

They cant require a tac load, but wouldn't it be a wise choice here?

[rowdyb]

i saw people do tac reloads on this stage in varying places. some made me go hmmmm....