Open didn't make major?

[thermobollocks]

So getting back on topic - sort of...Why are Production shooters penalized more than shooters in Major PF? If you're Lim/L10/Revo/SS or Open & don't make PF you score minor - but you are still scored. If your Prod ammo doesn't make PF you don't score. Maybe everyone should shoot for fun if they don't make their DECLARED PF

Another way to look at it is that Production shooters aren't penalized "more". Everybody goes down one step if they miss PF, and Major has something below it, but Prod doesn't because we're already shooting at the minimum (Minor) in order to keep the recoil down. Still, we need to make sure we make PF, or we know we're shooting for no score.

I'm going to guess that most of the Prod PF misses are with loads that are on the thin edge of 125 (maybe just a few points above 125), and they miss because of changes in location and/or temp or because the chrono used wasn't reading properly (had that problem last weekend, not watching the sun on the sensors).

Does anyone have hard data on this?

Aside from all the posts in the reloading forum about 127PF N320/Titegroup loads?

[teros135]

Actually, I'm looking for data about how many people don't make PF at major matches, and why. I doubt there's much statistical info on that subject, but there is discussion in the forums.

For instance this, from 2010 under "What is a comfortable margin for making minor" (where the consensus seemed to be that a minimum of 7 and more generally 8-10 points above the PF floor (i.e., PF 133-135) is the minimum for minor):

"Why? Because there's variation from one chronograph to the next, conditions and lighting change results, and if you go sub-minor, you're no longer shooting for score. I've explained this one many, many times, but it's pretty clear cut. I went to the 2008 Nationals with a batch of ammo that I loaded up for two other majors, plus that Nationals. At the two majors it went what I saw at home regularly...172 to 174PF (Major load). At the Nationals, it went 166.1PF. I brought some of that batch home, and it went 172-174 again regularly. When I loaded ammo for the 2009 Nationals, I hadn't made a single change to anything on the press....zip, nadda, nothing. I loaded up a batch of ammo with all the same components as I used for the 2008 Nationals (cases may have been a different lot, but home chrono work was the same)...yes, I buy in significant bulk. That batch went 172-174PF on half a dozen days before I left for Nationals. It was 172PF in Vegas. Same load, same components, same gun, 166.1PF one time, 172PF another time. At least with Major, you still get to shoot for score if you don't make it. I just checked the earlier posts and Flex said something similar...+7PF over the floor as an absolute minimum. Further, I'll bet anybody a paycheck that they can't tell which is a 130PF load when compared with a 135PF load....not gonna happen because the round-to-round variation in either string is going to overlap significantly between the two. So, it's a no-brainer to make sure you absolutely will make PF.

Your Solo 1K load is going to lose velocity if you travel, and most places are hotter than CO....which means you might need that load to be at 140PF at home if you're going somewhere really warm....say like Vegas in Oct!

10 round strings don't show nearly as much as what I've found with 20rd strings....just a side note. I'd do longer strings, but 20 is easy and doesn't take a pile of mags to get through. "

Regards,

teros

[Nik Habicht]

10 rounds, 20 rounds -- it;s not really chronoing unless you shoot ten percent of your batch over the chrono -- while shooting groups at a ten or 15 yard target, of course.......

[gng4life]

So getting back on topic - sort of...Why are Production shooters penalized more than shooters in Major PF? If you're Lim/L10/Revo/SS or Open & don't make PF you score minor - but you are still scored. If your Prod ammo doesn't make PF you don't score. Maybe everyone should shoot for fun if they don't make their DECLARED PF

Part of the reasoning for this is in the principles of IPSC/USPSA - Speed, Power, Accuracy. Due to the floor for power, there is nowhere else to go for sub-minor loads. That is why it is so important to validate minor loads and make sure there is sufficient cushion to keep you in Minor. I usually try for a minimum of 133 but 135 is better. Every major match I've been to used the CED M2 so I got one of them. I try to shoot 3-5 Majors a year, East and West coast and I have no issues with PF. Hope this helps...

[gng4life]

Good info Teros, especially knowing if your powder is temp sensitive either way. I shot the same HS6 load all over and I've only varied +/-2 PF on range chrono and mostly between 169.8-172.6 at Majors the past few years.

[pmt]

So getting back on topic - sort of...Why are Production shooters penalized more than shooters in Major PF? If you're Lim/L10/Revo/SS or Open & don't make PF you score minor - but you are still scored. If your Prod ammo doesn't make PF you don't score. Maybe everyone should shoot for fun if they don't make their DECLARED PF

Part of the reasoning for this is in the principles of IPSC/USPSA - Speed, Power, Accuracy. Due to the floor for power, there is nowhere else to go for sub-minor loads. That is why it is so important to validate minor loads and make sure there is sufficient cushion to keep you in Minor. I usually try for a minimum of 133 but 135 is better. Every major match I've been to used the CED M2 so I got one of them. I try to shoot 3-5 Majors a year, East and West coast and I have no issues with PF. Hope this helps...

A 9mm Open gun probably shoot softer & flatter than a typical Prod gun, but the shooter is rewarded by higher points for shooting Major PF. I'm just saying that if you DECLARE major PF and don't make it, maybe you should be rewarded the same way a person that DECLARED minor PF and didn't make it - you shoot for no score. If you end up shooting minor in a match there is some incentive to try a little harder - you want to beat your buddies with your minor loads. Currently if you get bumped from minor to no score your match fee just became an expensive practice session.

[Nik Habicht]

So getting back on topic - sort of...Why are Production shooters penalized more than shooters in Major PF? If you're Lim/L10/Revo/SS or Open & don't make PF you score minor - but you are still scored. If your Prod ammo doesn't make PF you don't score. Maybe everyone should shoot for fun if they don't make their DECLARED PF

Part of the reasoning for this is in the principles of IPSC/USPSA - Speed, Power, Accuracy. Due to the floor for power, there is nowhere else to go for sub-minor loads. That is why it is so important to validate minor loads and make sure there is sufficient cushion to keep you in Minor. I usually try for a minimum of 133 but 135 is better. Every major match I've been to used the CED M2 so I got one of them. I try to shoot 3-5 Majors a year, East and West coast and I have no issues with PF. Hope this helps...

A 9mm Open gun probably shoot softer & flatter than a typical Prod gun, but the shooter is rewarded by higher points for shooting Major PF. I'm just saying that if you DECLARE major PF and don't make it, maybe you should be rewarded the same way a person that DECLARED minor PF and didn't make it - you shoot for no score. If you end up shooting minor in a match there is some incentive to try a little harder - you want to beat your buddies with your minor loads. Currently if you get bumped from minor to no score your match fee just became an expensive practice session.

They're both treated the same way -- the minimum power factor to play this game is 125. So the open shooter needs to make that just as much as the production shooter. Now, the open shooter may declare ammo to make major, and essentially receive bonus points for shooting peripheral hits with a stouter load, but if his measured power factor comes in at 160, he still exceeds the minimum required floor, and continues to shoot minor.

Very logical, fair, and no need for a change....

[9146gt]

With no way to certify accuracy of equiptment used at matches (scales and chronos) how can they be used to enforce rules?

Tom

[a matt]

Really, it's just a best guess. Then they draw a line in the concrete and call it good. The rules on chrono are very specific so most of the time you can pay them $100.00 challenge the chrono get it thrown out get you $100.00 back get the chrono tossed and everyone make major. But if you just make sure you are safe wt. box, PF & any another factor. Then you can just shoot, and that is what we all really want. If you want to play games with the chrono, it's going to bite you, same with any rules in this game. LOL

Edited September 7, 2014 by a matt

[teros135]

With no way to certify accuracy of equiptment used at matches (scales and chronos) how can they be used to enforce rules?

Tom

The rules state pretty clearly what's allowed and what's not. Despite all the discussions here about specifics, we all have a pretty good idea what the equipment rules are.

There have been several threads on whether or how to enforce the equipment and PF rules at Level I (local) matches, where the rule book says you don't have to chrono. It's more a matter of whether the MD and staff want to look at equipment and catch the more obvious problems (e.g., low-slung holsters, sights, mags, etc) vs. digging in and doing close inspections. Most of us know pretty much what's allowed and will speak up if someone has a "Production" gun with a laser grip or such. For PF, we pretty much have to trust what the shooter declares (which is what the rule book says we have to do if there's no chrono).

The rule book says that chrono is optional at Level I and II and is required at Level III and Nationals. Many Level II matches have chrono, which is a good thing (and thanks to those MDs and crews for taking the time and energy to do it! ).

Scales, boxes, and chronos are used at Level III and Nationals (mandatory).

That's kind of an overview of how the tools are used. We're here for fun and fellowship, within the structure of USPSA, and as the stakes get higher there's more of an emphasis on using the tools to verify what everyone is using.

(Edit: a matt and I must have seen this question at the same time - but I'm apparently more long-winded and got here second!)

Edited September 7, 2014 by teros135

[thermobollocks]

A ballistic pendulum is easy to calibrate.

[motosapiens]

10 rounds, 20 rounds -- it;s not really chronoing unless you shoot ten percent of your batch over the chrono -- while shooting groups at a ten or 15 yard target, of course.......

What if you are good at math and use the science of statistical inference? Seems to me you could get away with shooting *way* fewer rounds if your standard deviation is low.

I usually shoot 5 or 6 and call it good. So far everything has chrono'd within 2 or 3 pf of what I get at home, often the exact same.

I don't really worry about it too much because something has to be VERY off to get the best 3 of 7 rounds below pf.

[CZinZA]

But motosapiens - how do you know if your standard deviation is low unless you have a suitable sample size [emoji1]

If you want to apply statistics and inference to this problem you can read my previous post and check out the spreadsheet http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?/topic/92433-What's-your-Power-Factor-margin-of-error#entry2100818

[motosapiens]

But motosapiens - how do you know if your standard deviation is low unless you have a suitable sample size [emoji1]

If you want to apply statistics and inference to this problem you can read my previous post and check out the spreadsheet http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?/topic/92433-What's-your-Power-Factor-margin-of-error#entry2100818

Well, good point, but I think it's a rational assumption that if my SD has been low in the past with a particular powder, and it's still low on my small sample size where I haven't changed anything, then it will probably be low no matter how many rounds I measure.

[CZinZA]

That's fair. I was just messing with you

[Nik Habicht]

10 rounds, 20 rounds -- it;s not really chronoing unless you shoot ten percent of your batch over the chrono -- while shooting groups at a ten or 15 yard target, of course.......

What if you are good at math and use the science of statistical inference? Seems to me you could get away with shooting *way* fewer rounds if your standard deviation is low.

I usually shoot 5 or 6 and call it good. So far everything has chrono'd within 2 or 3 pf of what I get at home, often the exact same.

I don't really worry about it too much because something has to be VERY off to get the best 3 of 7 rounds below pf.

Someone could have turned the dial on the press. Something could have broken.....

I could have screwed up. For Nats I always loaded in small batches, maybe 200 rounds at a time, because I inspected everything as I was going, and I wanted perfect motion on the machine. Then I'd still chorine 10 percent, even after having checked the powder charge on every tenth round. Overkill? Probably, but I'm German......