alma Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 (edited) I disagree with the mentality that the gun should not leave your line of sight, shouldn't drop, etc. Some of the idea positioning for a reload are much easier to pull of if you have a big fat magwell instead if a Production Gun set up. To do a fast and reliable reload in Production you need to bring the gun in a bit closer into your "work space." But don't take my word for it; take a look at the first 4 seconds of this video: Edited August 6, 2014 by alma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpa5oh Posted August 6, 2014 Author Share Posted August 6, 2014 Super helpful Jshuberg. I will follow all three of your recommendations...and they fit nicely with the other suggestions given in this thread. I definitely think that keeping the gun high and not bringing it in as far will help - you're right in that when I think about pulling the gun in it's very natural to pull the fingers in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpa5oh Posted August 6, 2014 Author Share Posted August 6, 2014 Alma, that's sort of the model of what I was *trying* to do with my reloads - I'd heard Ben in a podcast talk about bringing the gun in and how he didn't believe it was a time waster and I was even told by another GM well known trainer/shooter that I needed the gun in closer to my body. I'll play with all of the suggestions for the next week. I love the part of that video where they take the slide off and a bunch of metal junk parts fall out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 yeah, that was a nice but subtle touch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 (edited) Super helpful Jshuberg. I will follow all three of your recommendations...and they fit nicely with the other suggestions given in this thread. I definitely think that keeping the gun high and not bringing it in as far will help - you're right in that when I think about pulling the gun in it's very natural to pull the fingers in. 2 thoughts on this; first, on the AD's, it sounds like you are simply reaching for the mag release before your finger is out of the trigger guard. Maybe you have a real light trigger too. At any rate, I pull my finger out FIRST, then i reach for the mag release as the gun is getting closer to my body. I don't try to do them simultaneously. It seems to me like there is plenty of time to do the two operations in sequence since you have to wait for the other hand to get the magazine off your belt anyway. Second, it's not a bad idea to experiment with positioning during reloads, but at least 1 production national champ brings the gun in pretty far and low. I'm a long ways from M or GM, but I chopped several tenths off my reloads by making my reloads more similar to his instead of keeping the gun high. By bracing my right elbow against my ribs, I get a very consistent angle that is naturally well-aligned with the magazine coming off my belt. Edited August 6, 2014 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jshuberg Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 (edited) I disagree with the mentality that the gun should not leave your line of sight, shouldn't drop, etc. Some of the idea positioning for a reload are much easier to pull of if you have a big fat magwell instead if a Production Gun set up. To do a fast and reliable reload in Production you need to bring the gun in a bit closer into your "work space." There are multiple ways to skin a cat, and there are benefits to either approach: When bringing your hands down it's much easier to index your arms off your body for consistent positioning, and proprioception is increased when you bring the gun down "to the bench". This is also more instinctual, and doesn't necessarily add any additional time provided the motion of your support hand from the mag pouch to full presentation is fluid and smooth. Keeping your hands high allows a better view of the gun for a longer period of time than when bringing it down and then back up. This gives your subconscious a better chance of identifying that something is wrong. Like your finger is visible in the trigger guard when pressing the mag release. Or that you're not actually in slide lock, but have a double feed, etc. The biggest issue with bringing your gun down is that this technique is only recommended when shooting exclusively for competition. I don't want to get into the whole competition vs. defensive shooting debate, but if a person wants their technique to be appropriate for both gaming and self defense, KEEP YOUR EYES ON THE TARGET! Under stress, you will revert to your training, and if you've trained yourself to bring your eyes down from the target during a reload, that's what you'll do in a fight. Combine this with a loss of peripheral vision, and looking down in a life threatening encounter is basically the same as closing your eyes for the same amount of time. It simply puts you at greater risk. Now I realize that the liklihood of finding yourself in a gunfight is extremely low (even for law enforcement), and the liklihood of having to reload during a gunfight is even lower still. So I'm not going to make a blanket statement that bringing your hands/eyes down during a reload is a bad thing, since the odds of the situation happening where it would put you at greater risk are miniscule. For the person who shoots for sport or recreation, and doesn't want to concern themself with training to use a firearm as a weapon, the benefits of bringing the gun down may make it an attractive option. However, for a person who is training not just for sport but also for defense, they should be aware that looking away from the threat, if only for a brief moment, does increases their risk. Edited August 6, 2014 by Jshuberg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 All 3 AD's happened as I was pushing the mag release button with my thumb...then after that my finger is naturally flat on the frame. I don't have an issue with AD's as I'm getting back on target.natural to have to push the right side of the frame with those fingers to offset the thumb force pressure. Simple solution is to pop the mag button with the weak hand thumb as you break the grip to reload. Then you don't have to shift grip with strong hand or contort it to reach the release button. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 I am just training for sport. But if I wasn't I would want to make sure that I actually got the magazine in the gun as fast as I could to get it operational again. for me, that entails bringing it down just a bit and a half a second if vision diversion to my magwell. I think its worth it. It would be even better to go find some cover but you won't catch me doing that each and every time I reload in USPSA just because it would be a better practice for the "real world." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 However, for a person who is training not just for sport but also for defense, they should be aware that looking away from the threat, if only for a brief moment, does increases their risk. Reloading will get you killed in the streets. If you can reload faster and more consistently by taking your eyes briefly off the imaginary 'threat', wouldn't you better off getting your gun back in action rather than just staring at the guy while you fumble with your empty gun? (not that I care. I'm good at math so I'm more concerned about my cholesterol than I am about how low my gun is when I'm reloading in a gunfight) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandbagger123 Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 you must have pretty long thumb too reach the mag release without releasing the gun. if you watch this TGO vid, even he seems to move his thumb to the mag release while pulling out his finger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jshuberg Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 (edited) If you can reload faster and more consistently by taking your eyes briefly off the imaginary 'threat', wouldn't you better off getting your gun back in action rather than just staring at the guy while you fumble with your empty gun? (not that I care. I'm good at math so I'm more concerned about my cholesterol than I am about how low my gun is when I'm reloading in a gunfight) I think the notion that reloading low is necessarily faster and more consistent is an incorrect presumption. It's faster and more consistent for you, likely because that's how you've trained extensively to do it. It may be more instinctual to reload low, but if you take a new shooter without any procedural memory or ingrained habits, and have them reload at the high ready, it will be perfectly natural and consistent for them once they've trained on it awhile. It's a bit slower to learn initially because of the instinct thing, but the benefit is that they will still be able to reload as fast as they're capable of, and do it with the target visible in the background. Here's a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Travis keeps his gun up high, and although he looks down to the magwell as he seats the magazine, the target is still in his field of vision behind the gun. Perhaps you believe that he's doing it wrong? Perhaps he would be faster if he brought the gun down? I suspect that keeping the gun up high doesn't significantly impede his performance at all, but it does maximize his situational awareness. Is situational awareness necessary in competition? Not really. The targets are all in well known locations, and those that move are moving in well known ways. For a defensive shooter, situational awareness is just as important as weapon handling proficiency. It all comes down to what it is that motivates a person to train. Edited August 6, 2014 by Jshuberg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 I think the notion that reloading low is necessarily faster and more consistent is an incorrect presumption. It's faster and more consistent for you, likely because that's how you've trained extensively to do it. It may be more instinctual to reload low, but if you take a new shooter without any procedural memory or ingrained habits, and have them reload at the high ready, it will be perfectly natural and consistent for them once they've trained on it awhile. Perhaps I was just unclear. I certainly never stated that it was better to drop the gun lower or that it was worse to keep the gun higher. I only recently started pulling the gun in closer and lower at the suggestion of a GM/national-champion who was coaching me. It is not instinctual at all for me to reload that way, but it immediately knocked a few tenths off my reload times. I certainly don't think what travis is doing is wrong, but: a) he's a different person, and shooting is an individual sport. Travis keeps his gun high, ben stoeger brings his in much closer and both manage a certain level of success. he's shooting in a different division. I'm talking about production, and I think the OP was also. That seems to make a big difference in terms of what works for reloading techniques and angles. To reiterate: I don't think there is a right or wrong way to reload, there is just a fast or slow way, and you have to do your own timed testing to determine what works best for you. If you are faster keeping the gun up, then that's great, but there are at least some people that find it faster and more reliable to bring the gun down more. I would recommend trying a few different things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 (edited) Travis has a big fat magwell. It makes a big difference. Also, guess what? He doesn't always do that reload. Especially when he is running a field course he brings the gun into his workspace and under his line of sight to reload. Especially for a Production shooter I think trying to always reload with the gun all the way up and out is very counter productive. See any reload here: Edited August 6, 2014 by alma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jshuberg Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 (edited) Agreed. And for the purposes of the OP's issue of having negligent discharges, keeping the gun up high will help him solve his problem. His problem isn't one of performance, consistency or speed. It's not an issue of the benefits of one technique over another. The problem is one of safety, and all other concerns need to take a back seat until this issue is addressed. Keeping the gun up high so he can see where his hands and fingers are located is an essential piece of feedback to help him get his problem under control. If once his problem is solved, he decides to drop his reload back down again, it's unlikely to ever cause him any issue. However, if he can become proficient at reloading while keeping the gun up high, he'll be maximizing his situational awareness (which never hurts), and eliminating the need to visually reacquire the target whenever the same target needs to be engaged again after reload. I come from a defensive shooting background. In this context, keeping your head up during reloads and maximizing situational awareness is standard training. Are there times to drop it down? Yes, absolutely. God gave us a flexible neck specifically so that we can look down at our guns during reloads when we need to Reloading on the move is a great example of this. However, the default is to keep the gun up, to keep your eyes up, stay aware of your surroundings whenever possible. This is where defensive and competition shooting styles deviate. I'd encourage anyone interested in defensive shooting to take a force-on-force class with simunitions. It's a very different thing when you find yourself on a two-way range. Will doing this make you a better competition shooter? Hard to say, but it will likely put things into a different perspective, which is never a bad thing. Edited August 6, 2014 by Jshuberg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 (edited) People also need to realize that if they are popping the mag release with the strong hand thumb, they will have to shift their grip and rotate the gun somewhat. How does that relate to the OP's possible cause of NDs? In a "normal" grip, the trigger finger can be taken outside the trigger guard and extended straight forward and the finger tip will probably (normal size fingers) lay across the front edge of the trigger guard. That's where mine rests on a reload, that blocks the finger from coming back inside the trigger guard while reloading. If I shift my grip enough to release the mag button.... the trigger finger tip no longer reaches the front of the guard it easily falls inside. The other thing, for every force on a stationary object there has to be an equal and opposite force so when you are trying to push the mag button in with the RH thumb, the natural tendency is to grab the gun with the other fingers which puts the index finger on the trigger. Edited August 7, 2014 by bountyhunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 Travis has a big fat magwell. It makes a big difference. Also, guess what? He doesn't always do that reload. Good point: one technique may not suit all needs. If I have a stock gun (no magwell) that has a double stack magazine, the natural taper of the top of the magazine means I can slam it in "blind" from underneath with the gun still in front and on target axis. I don't need to see the underside. But for a single stack 1911 with no magwell, I have to bring it in a little and rotate the bottom up and stare straight at it to make sure I get the mag dead in the opening or I will catch a mag lip on the frame every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jshuberg Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 To clarify, brining the gun in towards your face, and canting it to get a better view can be done at the height of the high ready position very easily. Brining it down to your belly, to your speghetti plate is what causes a person to lose situational awareness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 To clarify, brining the gun in towards your face, and canting it to get a better view can be done at the height of the high ready position very easily. Brining it down to your belly, to your speghetti plate is what causes a person to lose situational awareness. We wouldn't that to happen. The scorekeeper or RO or one of the targets would then have the opportunity to shoot the competitor. Lack of situational awareness will get you killed in the streets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 Rather than thinking about getting my finger out of the trigger guard I focus on making sure I put it on a specific spot on the side of the slide. Even though It's automatic now I can feel the end of the slide stop every time I think about my trigger finger. It definitely helps me.This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeerBaron Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 Here's a quick, crappy video I just took 5 minutes ago of how I reload. Excuse the stupid Affliction shirt from 10 years ago that I wear to bed... I wasn't trying to push speed in this reload - and I've basically done 6,000 reloads just like this in live and dry fire in the last month and a half. Maybe there's something inherently dangerous about how I'm doing it. I 'think' I can see the problem in your video. you are getting onto the mag release too early. it's not speeding up your reloads either as there's still a definite gap between mag falling clear and your new mag coming up to the magwell. I think you need to work a little on the new mag insertion part of the reload (as that's where your lost time is) and slow down enough on pressing the button so that your finger is well clear of the trigger. you need to get into a mode where your finger is literally only on the trigger when you're pulling it. any movement, any remedial action, any reload and finger is off. so that what happens is finger off (or more likely sitting against part of the frame, like the protrusion of the slide stop pin) becomes the 'normal' state of your trigger finger during a stage and you move it to the trigger only to shoot. so rather than thinking, my finger is on the trigger and I must move it off to move/reload/whatever. you mind is more in the frame of: my fingers home is on the side of the frame, I must move it to the trigger in order to shoot. Having 3 AD's on mag changes in this short space of time is a real issue and beyond being a problem with DQ's etc it could see you or someone else get hurt. So if in the first instance you have to slow it down a bit to make it safe or even just to understand better what you're doing then that's what you'll have to do. Get someone to film your reloads in a match. That's when the pressure is on, and you're on the *thumb rest [generic]* and when mistakes can creep in. Some footage of your match reloads should help you diagnose what's happening and rectify it. Once the technique is safe again then you can pursue some speed along the lines of what guys have suggested in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpa5oh Posted August 8, 2014 Author Share Posted August 8, 2014 Yeah for sure I am taking this very seriously and I have no concern right now at all about placing well at matches. And if I never get back to where I was performance-wise that will be fine by me - the point of me doing 1,000 mag changes a week and making this thread was to make sure that I could enjoy this sport and its people for many years to come. I'm not going to say I'm immune from an AD outside of the instant I push the mag release because I know better than to assume anything, but that's the only time I have an issue. I think that other than at that instant my finger is flat and on the frame unless the gun is on target. I've tried many of the suggestions in this thread over the last few days in hundreds and hundreds of reloads. I didn't like looking in the trigger guard - even though I didn't have an issue, it felt awkward focusing on a negative (I look at targets to shoot them...I look at the magwell to get a magazine in there...I look at positions on the ground to get setup there...looking at the trigger to make sure I'm NOT near it felt contrary to the nature of every other visual input.) Where I reload doesn't seem to make a difference other than that I think when I'm running having the gun up and out is going to result in more fumbling which might be asking for trouble. I've settled on focusing on two of the suggestions here and one from someone locally here: - break grip every mag change (sometimes when I'm trying to get fast I don't break my grip and then I end up reaching really hard with my thumb which I think causes me to tense up with the rest of my fingers in order to allow for that thumb stretch...in other words, not breaking grip and having the finger straight and up on the frame don't necessarily work together - for me) - finger up on the frame BEFORE hitting the mag release, not simultaneous with hitting the mag release - stop trying to hit the mag release the split second after the last shot is fired - that was kind of burned into my shooting very early and it isn't a time saver but it does raise the likelihood that I get to the mag release before the finger is up on the frame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HardChrome Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 Finger off the trigger whenever you dont intend on killing something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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