Which powder is a better fit?

[Neomet]

I found 350 much nicer. It is still an Open gun mind you, but it doesn't sound like you are firing a howitzer in a house.

[BeerBaron]

ok, that is somewhat reassuring. I am not kidding myself. I know my gun will sound like a howitzer in a house. just hoping it doesn't sound (and feel) like a mortar in a fridge!!!

it's the tanfoglio V12 which is probably close to the loudest gun on earth. actually no, those tribrids are possibly a bit louder despite having "only" 6 ports vs my 12 - theirs are bigger though.

anyway, i've bought some N350 now and will try it soon and report back.

[BeerBaron]

on the note of loads, I haven't really played with small rifle primers much.

how do people rate federals small rifle primer for a 38 super major load? are they a softer primer (compared to other SRP) like the fed SPP are?

[Guest]

I'll second what Neomet said - I''d classify N350 as being "typically" loud/concussive in my open guns, about on par with AA#7/SR4756.

Federal SRPs are a good primer and the softest SRP brand that I know of (like their SPP primers) , which is not a bad thing for your pistol. You don't have to use Small Rifle Primers and should try some loads with Small Pistol Primers if that is what you normally keep on hand of if they are easier to get. I usually use either Federal, Winchester, or Tula SRPs and can't tell any significant difference between them. If I use small pistol primers I'll use Winchester, Tula, or CCI as the Federals are pretty soft and show pressure signs early (plus I save the federals for revolver), but you might want to try some to see what you find.

Edited July 24, 2014 by Bamboo

[Service Desk]

Don't discount AP100..... If the rest of the World could get it....you would not. It is every bit as good as VV350.

[BeerBaron]

ok, good tip. I confess I did buy 4lb of AP100 too just because the store had the big bottles in stock and you never know when they'll have them again (in the big bottles you get 4lb for the price of 3). I figured if I liked the N350 that much more I'd use the AP100 for practice rounds.

It terms of load AP100 seems to be similar to N350 with around 8gn or so being a good major load behind a 120-125gn pill. I'm not sure which powder is denser though.

there's a handy little chart that ADI put out comparing powders and their approximate equivalents in burn rate. http://www.adi-powders.com.au/handloaders/equivalents.asp

One that caught my attention (since we do get alliant powder here) is blue dot. it's around the same on that chart as HS7 and N350.

So is anyone using blue dot or even HS7?

[seanc]

Don't discount AP100..... If the rest of the World could get it....you would not. It is every bit as good as VV350.

What is AP100 sold as in the states?

[a matt]

I'm looking to be about 1350fps w/124 Rainier HP's & n350. I'm thinking about 7.0gr w/ 4lg.popple holes to start. Thoughts? Safe or ideas. Thanks gang. I switch from 3n37 to n350. 3n37 was 9.2gr and a little harsh. Lol

I am starting @ 7.0 up 8.0 so we will see today.

Edited July 26, 2014 by a matt

[BeerBaron]

Don't discount AP100..... If the rest of the World could get it....you would not. It is every bit as good as VV350.

What is AP100 sold as in the states?

unfortunately I don't think it's sold in the US under by the compaines that re-brand ADI powders. shame as it's quite a good powder for open. works for 9 major loads too.

Edited July 26, 2014 by BeerBaron

[a matt]

Well, 8.0 is just shy of making power for my guy, right at 160 to 164. 8.2 of n350 should be good. Now I must say N350 is by far LESS violent, far less blast/flash the DOT goes up shakes comes down wiggles and settles right where I like it. hope this continues with the little bump to 8.2. Fingers crossed. Lol.

I wonder how close 3n38 is to n350?

[Neomet]

N350: The nice girl in school

N3n38 The crazy wild girl in school with orange hair. You aren't sure she is worth all that drama but she has her benefits.

Seriously, I found N38 to track about the same but with less vertical movement. This was with a four port comp and two popple holes. Light slide. Different configurations can bring different experiences.

[BeerBaron]

ok guys, I shot the V12 for the first time this weekend.

Took it to do some sighting in, and it was pretty much on-aim at 15 meters. I just fired 9 shots and that was enough. Load was 8.2gn of AP100 behind a hi-tek coated lead 125gn conical loaded to 1.250 OAL, brand new starline brass.

Went back to the IPSC range and shot a short 10 round stage. seemed ok.

then shot a 32 round stage. was mostly a run and gun/hoser stage but started with some steel at about 18 meters (20 yards). There was also a bowling pin shot from about 12 meters (15 yards) - which I hit first shot.

Went up to the line, hit the plate and mini popper first hit, 2 shots to hit another plate on a turn over target. ran through the stage only 7 points down and fastest time of the day (I was last shooter). First outright for that stage including against some other open shooters (one was breaking in a new gun though) and a couple of A grade shooters one who is ex GM. I've never come first outright on a stage in my club (I'm still really learning the craft and an average shooter and shoot with some great shooters). Could not believe it.

I was prepared to be really put off by the blast and noise but it actually didn't bother me at all. When running the stage it just didn't enter my mind at all.

I then shot that stage again got the same time and very similar points. Some bastard ran a better time though and beat me on the second run.

The best part was after 2 X 34 rounds, 10 rounds and 9 round sighting ~85 rounds the cmore wasn't dirty at all which is good.

The gun seemed to shoot pretty flat. fast doubles were just fine. the trigger is all standard and a bit longer in travel than it probably needs to be, but for now it's ok.

I have to say it fits really nicely in my hands. the thumb rest is in a great spot, grips feel fine, big wide safety is just perfect.

Can you tell I'm a little bit in love....

I managed to score some 3N38 but now I've not N350, 3N38 and AP100 I may have more types of powder than is good for me. I think I'll try some AP100 loads and N350 loads for now and save the 3N38 for later.

The only time I had trouble finding the dot was on the first 10 round stage after a run forward to a close array. On the 32 rounders I had it there all the time. Makes me wonder if I need to bother going to the side mount or not...

Anyway, so far I'm liking it.

[BeerBaron]

Update for anyone interested.

Loaded up 100 rounds of a starting load of 7.7 of n350 with fed spp in new starline brass with oal at 1.250 with 124gn frontier cmj. Load chronod sub major which was no surprise but shot fine and no pressure signs on the super soft fed spp which is good. Will now work up to around an 8gn load which I think will be fine. Maybe end up around 8.2gn. I also scored some 3n38 and will try that soon.

[a matt]

I ended up @ 8.3 n350 w/ 4 hole comp & 4 popple holes on bbl. nice feel and accuracy was spot on.

[BeerBaron]

thanks a matt. Yeah my rough guess was I'd end up on 8.2gn to make major in the tanfoglio V12. Given you guys need 165 PF for USPSA and I only need 160 PF makes me think if you used 8.3 then 8.2 or 8.3 will be spot on for me.

I'm guessing you guys aim for a PF around 168-172? We all aim for a PF around 165.

anyone got some good tips on cleaning the cmore at the range? I can't believe I posted before that it wasn't dirty! after about 70 rounds it was filthy. the bottom 2/3 of the lense was just some powder dust but the top 1/3 was like crusted on crap! Just rubbing with a clean cotton cloth didn't do it. At home I used some windex on a cloth but that's not so practical at the range.

I've ordered a quinn mount which will hopefully lower the optic down and move it back a bit which may put it out of the worst of the blast.

[a matt]

Small bottle like a 2oz. 1/2 CLR/ calcium lime rust. & other 1/2 distilled water and Q-tips. Clean it and wipe it dry. Works really well for me.

[BeerBaron]

ok, an update for anyone interested.

I worked up a new load for the V12 which went like this:

starline 38 super brass

federal SPP

124gn RN CMJ (frontier)

1.250 OAL

8.2gn of VV N350

averaged 168 PF.

no pressure signs on the fed SPP beyond some flattening (normal with these even in minor loads).

I've now loaded up a bunch the same but with fed SRP to see if that bumps up the PF a little (only need 160 for IPSC but would like a bigger safety margin).

the gun shoots very nicely with the N350. not as violent to shoot as the AP100 loads were. a fair bit cleaner too.

I've put together a bunch of 8.6gn N350 loads with both SPP and SRP to try and I've also loaded up some 3N38 (10.2gn with both SRP and SPP) to test this weekend so we'll see how that goes.

so far I like the N350 but I may like the 3N38 even more.

Edited August 22, 2014 by BeerBaron

[a matt]

That's on par with my load too. I did drop oal. from 1.260 to 1.230. That gave me 170 to a 171 with no signs of pressure issues. I'm using Tula srp, and I also have about 16lbs of 3n38 that I'm going to run after another 4 lbs of n350. Like you the n350 is pretty clean but nice to shoot the dot is very consistent. I like the 350...

[Neomet]

Richard, I am not sure how it will translate to the Tanfo but on my S_I guns I have found that pumping the charge up to @ 172- 175 PF actually reduces dot movement and perceived recoil. I didn't learn this trick until after I had my Tanfos.

Just a thought.

[BeerBaron]

Thanks a matt and Neomet.

Yep, I know about not just loading to the min PF. even in my minor guns I found my CZ shot much better and grouped tighter with my 135gn load running at around 135pf than at 130pf.

The thing with the tanfogs is though a load that's making 165-170 in it is the same load making 175+ in a 2011. since they just bleed so much gas.

but I am trying some higher loads this weekend. My N350 load at 8.2gn is very nice to shoot (nicer than the start load I tried which was 7.6gn) so we'll see how the 8.6gn load goes. I'm really interested to see how my 3N38 loads go. I am so pleased with the N350 so if it shoots as well as that or better I'll be super happy.

Amatt: that makes good sense. my N350 load is getting 168pf with SPP at 1.250 OAL. yours a little shorter at 1.230 and with SRP making 171 tells me things are performing as they should be.

I wish I had 16lb of 3N38... or 4lb or N350 for that matter!

It's a little surprising the N350 is as nice to shoot as it is given it's position on the burn charts. Generally you'd think the slower the powder (to a point) the better it'd shoot. I guess it does sit between 3N37 and 3N38 on the VV chart.

[BeerBaron]

I tried some new loads over the chrono but didn't really get a chance to shoot them much.

I tried:

8.6gn VV N350

125gn RN CMJ

1.250 OAL

fed SPP

averave PF about 173. very barky and a bit of an angry load but I don't mind it too much.

8.2gn VV N350

125gn RN CMJ

1.250 OAL

fed SRP

Wanted to see if SRP gave me any extra FPS over the SPP. it did a little. bumped avg PF up from about 166 to 168. all ignited just fine.

10.2gn VV 3N38

125gn RN CMJ

1.250 OAL

fed SRP

This load is noticeably less noisy than the N350 and does seem nicer to shoot (though I didn't get to shoot many rounds). avg PF was 168.

It looks like 3N38 will be my fav powder. Shame I have to use nearly 30% more by weight to make the same PF as I do with N350!! VV is already over $50 a pound here so bumping up 30% useage for the same PF kind of sucks. wish they sold it by volume not weight!!!

I can't really comment much on how it really shoots or how clean the 3N38 burns etc compared to the N350 loads I've been shooting but the little taste I had certainly makes me want another. I'll be loading up some more 3N38 rounds.

[a matt]

Great info thanks for that. It is amazing how much more 3n38 than n350 even with them being right on top of each other on the burn charts. Lol

[BeerBaron]

yep, the 10.2gn 3N38 load gives basically the same avg velocity as the 8.2gn N350 load. same brass, same OAL, same primers, same bullet, same gun and shot over the same chrono on the same day within minutes of each other...

30% more spent on powder is something worth considering if you do shoot a lot. the volume of both loads is about the same which makes sense. 10.2gn is 8.2cc. funnily enough the N350 meters at very nearly 1gn per cc so it's 8.2gn is 8.2cc. so 3N38 is quite a bit denser.

[BeerBaron]

ok, so I had a level 3 match last weekend. having only had time to chrono the one 3N38 load but liking what I saw I decided to run with it but tweaked it up a bit for safety at the match chrono.

I ran:

38 super starline (now 3 times fired cases)

fed small rifle primers (100% ignition in my tanfoglio eric custom V12)

VV 3N38 10.4gn

frontier 124gn RN CMJ

1.245 OAL

Gun ran beautifully all weekend. RO's and squad mates report my gun is super loud and annoying but for me shooting it it's not a bother at all. Feels like I could shoot it all day. I'm not even double plugged (just use peltor tactical sports with gel cup upgrade NRR around 25).

It sits very flat now. Dot seems to do kind of a semi circle. on firing (assuming dot in the middle at this point) it does down a little first towards 6 oclock (I'm guessing the gas force from the 12 ports and the comp actually forces the gun down to start), it then moves a little right towards say 4 oclock then as slide comes back and lifts the muzzle a little it goes up the right side of the glass sort of 3, 2, 1 oclock, then hits 12 oclock (back in the middle now but up the top of the glass) and then settles back to where it started. well that's what I 'think' it does.....

I think I like the 3N39 better than the N350. don't get me wrong the N350 is awesome too, but the 3N38 seems just that bit nicer to shoot whilst still keeping the gun very flat.

[a matt]

Thanks for the write up. Good stuff!