No Ammo In Safe Area?

[Vlad]

Well Chuck, if my club ever forces me down this route I'll make sure to send in my card and give MID-01 back to USPSA to do with it as it pleases. I'll let the shooters know why as well.

Basically this is an argument in absurdity of rules. We are not discussing and RO at some match who didn't know the rules and a rule set we might not even know what it was. We are not discussing making a match less safe by anyone's definition. We are simply discussing a rule breakage that has no negative impact on safety, the image of USPSA, or in any way changing the game of USPSA, we are talking about a rule regarding administrative minutia. You are saying that USPSA could make a rule about the angle at which cars should be parked, and anyone not following it can't call their match USPSA.

We live in a different world then even 10 years ago. I get more inquaries asking if we shoot 3gun then I get about USPSA. USPSA has a brand but it is an old brand (and dare I say a bit tarnished lately?). 3gn gets a TV show, guess what new shooters are asking about?

Every weekend on every range within resonable driving distance has some form of action shooting scheduled, be it USPSA, IDPA, steel, 3gun, cowboy, etc. We quite seriously have to fight to keep the time slots we have and not lose the number of pits we are using. Around here it is silly to think club attendence would drop if a USPSA match goes away, there would probably be line of matches trying to get that time slot.

Oh those two major clubs I mentioned that stopped running USPSA? They are still running matches, ran by the same people. They are running "outlaw" 3gun matches and packing the house, despite the lack of USPSA rules bondage. They didn't suffer any. So ignore me if you wish, stick by your position if you wish, but I think the board needs to listen: USPSA is not the brand it is used to be, there is a lot of competition out there, if you insist on pushing for things that don't matter it will be USPSA's loss, not mine or the clubs. That day is gone, or at least it is around here.

Edited June 25, 2014 by Vlad

[Chuck Anderson]

Well you really don't have to worry about it. I'll be off the BOD end of next year anyway, at the latest. I'm not ignoring you. I just don't agree with you. Not saying you have to change your opinion either. Good luck with whatever sport you choose to participate.

[Vlad]

REgardless of differences of opininons, thank you for the time and effort you put in while on the BoD, I know it is a thankless job.

[Parallax3D]

It seems reasonable to me that a competition organization should have competition rules that are consistent from place to place. The muzzle-over-the-berm-reload is an entirely different animal than ammo in the safe area. One is part of the course of fire and definiitely affects competitive equity. The other is simple housekeeping, like where to park.

EXACTLY!!

Is it REALLY going to kill anyone to remove their mags before going to the safe area, if that's what the local club prefers? You can't handle them when you're in the safe area anyway, so why even bring them with you? It's not like we're talking about making things LESS safe! No, you can't be DQ'd for it, but if you keep pissing off the range owner by ignoring their rules, then they have every right to kick you out. Most of these are PRIVATE clubs, and without them, the USPSA would not exist, because people would have no place to shoot.

[Skydiver]

I'm interested in following that line of thought further... Some ranges think that it is safer for the actions of guns to always be open when not in use. Does that mean a club can have a local rule that says when you are not the shooter, the action must be open in your holster? (As I recall, GSSF requires this for their matches as part of their rules.)

Edited June 25, 2014 by Skydiver

[whitedog]

Yup...let's take the discussion further down the rabbit whole.

What if a club required only table starts?

What if a club said no steel?

What if a club said no metric targets? Un PC and all.

What if....

All the above can be done in the rules.

Playing the what if game just muds up the water.

[kamikaze1a]

Wondering, regarding the muzzle over the berm local rule, could 2.3.1 and 2.3.1.1 be used to enforce the rule? I guess the ammo in safe area is not part of a COF so would not apply...

[Jaxshooter]

Skydiver USPSA rules are used for all sanctioned matches. Nothing can be added to or deleted from the rules without a signed letter from USPSA. Local rules are ignored unless they get permission in writing.

[Skydiver]

@Jaxshooter: I understand and completely agree that local rules should be receive permission from USPSA. Chuck knows that I used to be a member of a club that tried to request a local rule against double tapping steel to prevent skips out of the range and into our neighbors' backyards where children may be playing. This changes the competitive flavor of the sport. Obviously we were denied and so our recourse was to design stages with forward falling steel and/or always placed such that ricochets will end up within the range. In the end, I think it made for more interesting stages.

I was just trying follow that "rabbit hole" (thanks for the term @whitedog, I was struggling to find the term earlier) that was started by @Parallax3D's idea in post #79 that the particular local rule in question was meant to enhance safety and didn't change the competitive nature of the sport. Basically, I wanted explore what's the harm in such a rule. Is it the beginning of a slippery slope? I also wanted to explore how people would react about having to keep their actions open. Is it an insult to USPSA's belt and suspenders approach to safety?

[technetium-99m]

I'm wondering what the rationale is for the safe area rule? Does your board think it makes the games safer? Are you dealing with a hostile board?

I've always wondered how boards are fine with rifles being pointed above berms at high power matches but lose their minds when pistols are pointed above berms during reloads.

[Nik Habicht]

I've always wondered how boards are fine with rifles being pointed above berms at high power matches but lose their minds when pistols are pointed above berms during reloads.

I suspect they're scared of the speed -- assuming that it's not possible to be quick and safe.....

[Skydiver]

Or they assume that people in USPSA reload pistols like some rifle shooters: finger in the trigger guard...

[whitedog]

Ignorance abounds regarding our sport.

"You shoot while moving?"

"You reload while moving?"

"You shoot moving targets?"

"That Glock can't handle that rate of fire"

"Comps gum up and the barrel will blow"

Heard them all from those that know zip about action shooting.

[Vlad]

I've always wondered how boards are fine with rifles being pointed above berms at high power matches but lose their minds when pistols are pointed above berms during reloads.

I suspect they're scared of the speed -- assuming that it's not possible to be quick and safe.....

This is my belief as well. Take a bunch of older clay shooters, expose them to people running around with guns shooting fast, and big eyed shock is the response. In my case they also think shooting .223 rifles in the same pits we shoot pistol in is dangerous because the berm are not big enough. Mind you, they are 12ft tall and somehing like 16ft wide at the base. When I pointed out that the pistol berms are in better shape then the rifle range berms, the new answer is that if we shoot over the berm we'll hit something ... err .. thats true with pistols too, because laws of physics. When further pressed why we can't really 3gun at this club, the answer was because they saw a 3gun match 20 years ago at this club and they were scared. This was the answer from one of the most reasonably board members.

[Chuck Anderson]

My club board came up with the muzzle over the berm rule after viewing video evidence of a shooter reloading with his muzzle elevated and his finger on the trigger. They used that to boot USPSA from the range. Mind you, this was video of an IDPA match. Both organizations have rules against reloading with the finger on the trigger, but they figured THIS one would be enforced.

[kmca]

It seems reasonable to me that a competition organization should have competition rules that are consistent from place to place. The muzzle-over-the-berm-reload is an entirely different animal than ammo in the safe area. One is part of the course of fire and definiitely affects competitive equity. The other is simple housekeeping, like where to park.

EXACTLY!!

Is it REALLY going to kill anyone to remove their mags before going to the safe area, if that's what the local club prefers? You can't handle them when you're in the safe area anyway, so why even bring them with you? It's not like we're talking about making things LESS safe! No, you can't be DQ'd for it, but if you keep pissing off the range owner by ignoring their rules, then they have every right to kick you out. Most of these are PRIVATE clubs, and without them, the USPSA would not exist, because people would have no place to shoot.

I do try to abide by "local" rules. How do you get your gun into the holster, if you pack your gun and loaded magazines in the same bag?

[Vlad]

I do try to abide by "local" rules. How do you get your gun into the holster, if you pack your gun and loaded magazines in the same bag?

take the mags out before you go to the safe table?

[kmca]

I do try to abide by "local" rules. How do you get your gun into the holster, if you pack your gun and loaded magazines in the same bag?

take the mags out before you go to the safe table?

OK, guess I had a "stupid" moment. I was just thinking about a local club, where I'd have to leave my magazines out of my sight, or on the ground.

[Parallax3D]

OK, guess I had a "stupid" moment. I was just thinking about a local club, where I'd have to leave my magazines out of my sight, or on the ground.

take the mags out before you go to the safe table?

Do your fellow shooters at local matches usually steal your magazines when you turn your back? (Practical joke type stuff aside.)

I'm assuming that if you have to unholster and set your gear aside to go to the restroom that it's usually still there when you come back, right?

The question here is, what is so onerous about a local rule that says, "no ammo in the safe area?"

Does it affect the actual shooting portion of the competition? No.

Is it less safe than the USPSA's rule? No.

Can you actually DQ anyone from a match for breaking the local rule? No.

[kmca]

OK, guess I had a "stupid" moment. I was just thinking about a local club, where I'd have to leave my magazines out of my sight, or on the ground.

take the mags out before you go to the safe table?

Do your fellow shooters at local matches usually steal your magazines when you turn your back? (Practical joke type stuff aside.)

I'm assuming that if you have to unholster and set your gear aside to go to the restroom that it's usually still there when you come back, right?

The question here is, what is so onerous about a local rule that says, "no ammo in the safe area?"

Does it affect the actual shooting portion of the competition? No.

Is it less safe than the USPSA's rule? No.

Can you actually DQ anyone from a match for breaking the local rule? No.

There was one time, I put my bag at the back of a stage and a kid tried to run off with it. The scorekeeper ( who runs much faster than I do) managed to catch the kid and get my bag back.

[pskys2]

Actually had an RO try to DQ me for that at a match in Texas I flew to. Was checking my scope in the safe area. He came up and started tugging on my magazine in the pouch. Told me I could be DQ'd for having ammo in the safe area. I told him the rule was against handling ammo in the safe area, which he was doing and could be DQ'd for. Short discussion which ended up with me not getting DQ'd (till the next day). Admittedly this was a three gun match and I really have no idea what the rules were.

To your question though about whether or not I'd want a range hosting a USPSA branded match that didn't adhere to the rules entirely . Even over something you consider minor. Short answer is no. I don't want them hosting a USPSAish match. The rules are the rules. And I have a reason for that. USPSA bases it's safety record on each club following the same rules. I can go to a club and say every other club in the country is following these exact rules and USPSA does have an enviable safety record. I can tell new clubs the reason they should follow our rules is that they've been vetted and used by thousands of competitors every weekend and we know they work. If one club starts doing things, to be more safe, or because they have "x" issue, that argument goes away. So for the benefit of all clubs, I'd rather lose one. Personal opinion and I've argued the point before with people I really respect. I don't think it's a perfect solution but it's the best I can come up with.

Let me turn it a bit. Would you agree with a club having a local rule that you found less safe? When I started at my local club we bagged and holstered in the parking lot at the trunk. Club was fine with it and said it was legal. When someone first raised the issue about it being against the rules it was a big deal. The MD said they played by big boy rules or something to that effect and if they didn't like it they could leave. I was still just a newbie at this point. Not even sure I'd read the rule book at that point to know what I didn't know. Once they started playing by the actual rules the club got much bigger. When they moved away from that participation dwindled. It's about a third what it used to be now that it is not a sanctioned match anymore. You say you've never received anything from USPSA for your monthly check. I think there are an awful lot of people that participate in USPSA because its USPSA and it's a known quantity. You might put on the same match you do now without USPSA. You might have just as many people come, but I doubt it. I know personally I rarely shoot matches that aren't affiliated with something. Just got tired of MD's and RM's making up rules as they go. I also got tired of having guns pointed at me and having the MD give the guy stage DQ's (note that's plural in the same match) but let him keep shooting, but that was a different sport.

Well put Chuck.

It;s a real bummer to go to a new club and get dq'd for something you didn't know about and didn't expect. The whole purpose of a national organizations rule book.

I have just quit going to matches that aren't sanctioned by a parent group, or aren't run by that organizations rules. Some, mostly all, rule books are a pain to wade through anyway for the first time. Don't need local pandering making it worse.

[Vlad]

And assuming anyone actually would get DQ'ed that would make sense. However, that seems to be a red herring as people don't seem to be getting DQed, but correctly warned or reminded.

[IHAVEGAS]

Hmmmm, seems like in every other similar instance that comes to mind there is always a clause that says "Parent orginization XYZ's safety regulations shall be followed along with any local regulations that are more restrictive".

Usually worded much better than that.

[aztecdriver]

I find the discussion interesting.

USPSA is a franchise model. When a club (landowner), chooses to affiliate, the are choosing to operate a franchise of the USPSA matches.

Think about it like this. If I franchisee of McDonalds signs the agreement but then decides to only service Big Mac's with mustard instead of "special sauce" because it's healthier, what do you think the reaction would be? Both from those that stop in and like Big Mac's despite it being "safer"? What about McDonalds corporate for messing with their brand - even in the name of health?

What's stopping a restauranteur from creating their own restaurant with their own menu - calling it better? But then call it McDonalds?

Truth told, it might vary well be a minor local rule - but how do we evaluate those local rules - if we allow a minor non-match affecting modification without evaluation, what does that set up for a precedent? Who does the evaluation?

That's why there is a process for a local exemption process. Maybe no ammo in the safety area is something easily handled through that? This is actually one of the misunderstood rules that people make assumptions without understanding. I've had several people try and warn me about going into the safety areas with ammo from the beginning until recently.

What does one get when agreeing to affiliate with USPSA? Well, you get a standardized rule set, national pool of members to draw from, a classification system, a series of championship matches from section, area and nationals and a common set of experience for members to share in. Each club, has to determine the value that USPSA brings to them and whether it's worth addressing the rules differences and accepting them. I know that, despite being a local group of newer and experienced shooters, our indoor club experiences benefits and benefit USPSA as we've have many shooters that show up for "classifier night" as well as have developed a ton of USPSA competitors, officials and match designers.

Specific areas are suffering from a lack of resources, and I can understand Vlad's frustration. The fact remains, though, it's not just to be a rule nazi, or USPSA apologist, but expectations are that as a landowner if you affiliate with USPSA, that you can host the match as required. While those of you will call it landowner prerogative, not a DQ, but refusing or expelling someone for not following a local rule, why bother affiliating in the first place.

[IHAVEGAS]

I find the discussion interesting.

USPSA is a franchise model. When a club (landowner), chooses to affiliate, the are choosing to operate a franchise of the USPSA matches.

Think about it like this. If I franchisee of McDonalds signs the agreement but then decides to only service Big Mac's with mustard instead of "special sauce" because it's healthier, what do you think the reaction would be? Both from those that stop in and like Big Mac's despite it being "safer"? What about McDonalds corporate for messing with their brand - even in the name of health?

What's stopping a restauranteur from creating their own restaurant with their own menu - calling it better? But then call it McDonalds?

Truth told, it might vary well be a minor local rule - but how do we evaluate those local rules - if we allow a minor non-match affecting modification without evaluation, what does that set up for a precedent? Who does the evaluation?

That's why there is a process for a local exemption process. Maybe no ammo in the safety area is something easily handled through that? This is actually one of the misunderstood rules that people make assumptions without understanding. I've had several people try and warn me about going into the safety areas with ammo from the beginning until recently.

What does one get when agreeing to affiliate with USPSA? Well, you get a standardized rule set, national pool of members to draw from, a classification system, a series of championship matches from section, area and nationals and a common set of experience for members to share in. Each club, has to determine the value that USPSA brings to them and whether it's worth addressing the rules differences and accepting them. I know that, despite being a local group of newer and experienced shooters, our indoor club experiences benefits and benefit USPSA as we've have many shooters that show up for "classifier night" as well as have developed a ton of USPSA competitors, officials and match designers.

Specific areas are suffering from a lack of resources, and I can understand Vlad's frustration. The fact remains, though, it's not just to be a rule nazi, or USPSA apologist, but expectations are that as a landowner if you affiliate with USPSA, that you can host the match as required. While those of you will call it landowner prerogative, not a DQ, but refusing or expelling someone for not following a local rule, why bother affiliating in the first place.

Very well written.

For what it is worth, it is often the case in my part of the world that local clubs do not choose to affiliate with the various shooting sports. Rather, a portion of the local club members or in some circumstances an independent group of enthusiasts, desire to use club facilities for shooting sports and attempt to make the sports happen within the framework of the club.

Standing in front of a diverse group of club board members and making the case that "this and that safety rule should be temporarily waived because this particular sport feels they are too restrictive", can be a pretty tough deal to close. Particularly because some of the more restrictive rules are adopted in reaction to unfortunate events.

Having enjoyed USPSA and other orginization matches that were shot within a tightened local safety requirement or two (announced at the pre-shoot meetings or by signage) and not having witnessed any pain from same, it seems like there is some merit to the go along and get along approach. Perhaps there had been advanced approval from the home office for tightened restrictions, I do not know.