Shoulders square but can your head be at angle

[RIIID]

Generally speaking most who try to game the start end up doing extra movements to get to the correct shooting stance-start. A stutter step or shuffling of their feet to get going, trying to regain their balance, ......

Learn to do the correct starting positions from the beginning and you will never have to think about it again or every time you shoot a stage.

Rich

[remoandiris]

I'd think that "facing downrange" would mean you would need to be facing somewhere downrange as it doesn't say "at the center of the array" or "at a 90 degree angle to the rear berm".

From the glossary;

Facing Uprange ................Face and feet pointing straight towards the backstop with shoulders parallel to the backstop.

Facing Down Range ........The exact opposite of facing uprange.

Sandbagger mentioned he has seen vids that appear to show shooters turned toward a target at the starting position. If the WSB says facing downrange and the target is off to one side, the shooter is, by definition, prohibited from facing toward the target.

Personally I think the definitions should be reversed. Feet and face pointing toward the backstop is facing downrange, unless the term "backstop" does not mean the back berm of a shooting bay.

What gloassary are you looking at? mine says:

Facing Uprange ................Face and feet pointing directly (90°) away from the

backstop with shoulders parallel to the backstop.

Facing Down Range ........The exact opposite of facing uprange.

The soft copy I have is the Feb 2014 rule book I downloaded on Jan 24th. I'm going to take a look at the USPSA site for a new revision.

Interesting. The one I have from Jan 2014 has a blue cover. Says Feb 2014 with a copyright of 2014. The one on the USPSA site has a burgundy cover and also says Feb 2014 with a copyright of 2014.

Edited June 2, 2014 by remoandiris

[remoandiris]

All of my teachings have been that you can angle as much as you wish if the WSB does not say FACING DOWNRANGE or FACING UPRANGE.

Now I'm confused. If the WSB doesn't say facing downrange, why doesn't the competitor have to use the default starting position? Earlier in this thread you said if there is no hand position the default hanging at sides has to be used.

[alma]

Take a look at the Classifiers as an example. Which way is do you need to be facing for El Presidente? It doesn't specify. It does say where your feet are and that your shoulders (back) is to the targets but says nothing about where your head can be oriented.

Many other Classifiers also say nothing about "facing" in the description and rather talk about where your feet need to be or say start is in box X. In these scenarios as long as your feet are in line you would be free to orient your shoulders and head as you see fit. If a stage has some listed start position and doesn't say anything about "facing" I do not believe that you must default to facing straight down range.

Feet don't even have to be aligned if it just says standing anywhere in the shooting area, or toes on marks, heels on marks. All of my teachings have been that you can angle as much as you wish if the WSB does not say FACING DOWNRANGE or FACING UPRANGE.

This is my understanding as well. I guess the question is if the WSB doesn't say anything about "facing" does everything default to facing up range standing erect, etc.?

[Sarge]

I can't answer the first part. Hand position is at sides if nothing else is said about hands such as above shoulders, on top of head, touching XX's on wall, etc. As for the default start position, I can't explain it. EVERYWHERE I have shot up to and including area matches, if the WSB says facing downrange then you have to look straight ahead, yadda,yadda. If it just says start position is toes touching rear fault line, or similar, then you do not have to square up.

[alma]

I can't answer the first part. Hand position is at sides if nothing else is said about hands such as above shoulders, on top of head, touching XX's on wall, etc. As for the default start position, I can't explain it. EVERYWHERE I have shot up to and including area matches, if the WSB says facing downrange then you have to look straight ahead, yadda,yadda. If it just says start position is toes touching rear fault line, or similar, then you do not have to square up.

Right. Otherwise when it says hands touching Xs then you would still be required to face down range unless it also said "facing the well." thinking back to El Presidente, again it mentions shoulders alignment and not which direction you have to face. Default to up range regardless?

[Sarge]

You know, what this thread needs is a video of what we all perceive to be legal start positions. I might make something this week. Might prove very interesting, and helpful.

[Nik Habicht]

I emailed JA. In a future Front Sight, he'll discuss the start position if it isn't fully defined in the WSB. According to him, if one item (such as hand position) isn't stated in the WSB, it reverts to the default.

Once it is published in FS, it is a rule.

Not quite. A rule change would require board approval. If John simply covers it in his column, it's his opinion, not a binding interpretation or a new rule......

My start positions will likely be written as "Shooters choice as long as INSERT REQUIREMENT I CARE ABOUT HERE." Some stages it could be that I care about where the hands or feet are placed......

[alma]

Some Classifiers say "facing the targets." that might be a good way to go about it.

[remoandiris]

Not quite. A rule change would require board approval. If John simply covers it in his column, it's his opinion, not a binding interpretation or a new rule......

Thanks. Thought I read something years ago that claimed if published in John's column in FS it was a rule.

[remoandiris]

After reading this thread I can see why there are differing opinions of hands/facing/whatever at the start if the WSB gives only partial start position instructions. It is difficult for me to accept a default arms have to hang naturally at sides if hand position is not dictated, but I don't have to face downrange if the WSB just says "standing in the shooting area". IMO that is picking and choosing what parts of 8.2.2. to follow/enforce.

[Sarge]

In my opinion the whole argument about arms hanging naturally at sides is so shooters don't move their hands to a position 1/8" from the grip of the gun with one hand and the same for mags with the other hand. Standing looking or angled towards a target is the same competitive advantage for everybody but hovering hands right near the guns and ammo would be a distinct advantage depending on the holster, body style, exact location of holster etc.

[alma]

other than the angle think about how many starts find us in a box, knees bent, ready to run at the buzzer to a specific shooting area. Under the more strict interpretation this would also not fly since you need to be standing "fully erect" unless the stage description says otherwise.

[Sarge]

other than the angle think about how many starts find us in a box, knees bent, ready to run at the buzzer to a specific shooting area. Under the more strict interpretation this would also not fly since you need to be standing "fully erect" unless the stage description says otherwise.

Before any more posts are made I want to make sure nobody here thinks I am arguing. Believe me I'm not. I actually find it quite fascinating that what I and everybody I have ever shot with or have seen shoot could be doing something exactly the opposite of what other shooters are seeing or doing. I would think this would be universally understood.

As to Alma's post, I process the rule exactly the opposite of him. Unless it says "facing down range" or "facing uprange" you can stand as you wish. I was under the impression that was the reason those two phrases were defined in the rule book. When those magic words are spoken then you have to act accordingly. However that does seem to fly in the face of the rule regarding the "default" position.

I think when a WSB says "toes touching marks" that eliminates the default position requirement because it said "something". "Start position is hands touching XX's" means if you can lean over or crouch down to see though a port while still touching any part of the X with each hand you are good to go. If it says, "facing downrange with hands touching XX's" then you have to square up right in front of the XX's.

I did it at the Ohio match with my stage. WSB said "sitting in chair facing uprange". Shooter had to sit in chair and keep feet, legs, body, shoulder, head etc pointed directly uprange without any bias towards one direction or another. If I had just said sitting in chair they could have sat facing any direction they wanted.

It is a valid point by remoandiris when the hands are treated differently. But for whatever reason they are from everything I have seen and done. But I think that is to keep them away from the gun and mags.

[remoandiris]

other than the angle think about how many starts find us in a box, knees bent, ready to run at the buzzer to a specific shooting area. Under the more strict interpretation this would also not fly since you need to be standing "fully erect" unless the stage description says otherwise.

This is one aspect of rules where I believe IPSC has USPSA beat. At the IPSC Nats last year, the WSB stated the start position "as demonstrated" by an RO for the stage. If the competitor failed to stand "as demonstrated", the RO corrected them. Most of the time it wasn't an issue. I think 3 people on the stage I worked were told to make a change.

[frag316]

I think when a WSB says "toes touching marks" that eliminates the default position requirement because it said "something". "Start position is hands touching XX's" means if you can lean over or crouch down to see though a port while still touching any part of the X with each hand you are good to go. If it says, "facing downrange with hands touching XX's" then you have to square up right in front of the XX's.

See, I'm with you on this. For example, I shot a match yesterday which had a wall parallel to the backstop with targets on each end, and a low port in the middle (about waist high) with a target on the ground on the other side of the wall. There were two sets of two Xs on each side of the port, about halfway between the port and the end of the wall.

WSB said competitor must have hands on the Xs and shoulders square to the wall. Using that WSB, I put my hands on the Xs and squared up to the wall with my shoulders, but my body was in front of the port, so I could draw to the right target and shoot that at the beep, transition to the port, then shoot the left target before taking off.

My squad felt, given the WSB, this was a legal start position, because we fulfilled all of the requirements. If the stage designer wanted me in front of the Xs, he would have said so, or put another set of marks on the ground (like another stage had--hands on Xs and toes on marks behind a barricade).

[Sarge]

Yep. I think you did right. It is certainly the way we would have done it here.

My favorite is when there is a wall that runs down range like in an inside range and start position says "standing square to the wall with hands on XX's. I of course stood facing the wall like a good little boy and had to turn around to shoot an angled target to the side. Another shooter stood with his back to the wall with his hands touching the XX's. Took a step and drew to the target. The stage designer was like "DAMN", I didn't think of that!

[Sarge]

other than the angle think about how many starts find us in a box, knees bent, ready to run at the buzzer to a specific shooting area. Under the more strict interpretation this would also not fly since you need to be standing "fully erect" unless the stage description says otherwise.

This is one aspect of rules where I believe IPSC has USPSA beat. At the IPSC Nats last year, the WSB stated the start position "as demonstrated" by an RO for the stage. If the competitor failed to stand "as demonstrated", the RO corrected them. Most of the time it wasn't an issue. I think 3 people on the stage I worked were told to make a change.

I like that and could get used to that. But how would this work at locals? Sure you could cover them in the shooters meeting and even show the RO's but by the time their respective squads got to all the stages somethings would almost have to be a little different than all the other squads.

[remoandiris]

other than the angle think about how many starts find us in a box, knees bent, ready to run at the buzzer to a specific shooting area. Under the more strict interpretation this would also not fly since you need to be standing "fully erect" unless the stage description says otherwise.

This is one aspect of rules where I believe IPSC has USPSA beat. At the IPSC Nats last year, the WSB stated the start position "as demonstrated" by an RO for the stage. If the competitor failed to stand "as demonstrated", the RO corrected them. Most of the time it wasn't an issue. I think 3 people on the stage I worked were told to make a change.

I like that and could get used to that. But how would this work at locals? Sure you could cover them in the shooters meeting and even show the RO's but by the time their respective squads got to all the stages somethings would almost have to be a little different than all the other squads.

At my local club, the RM/MD still does a "mass" walk thru of each stage. Everyone sees the same thing at the same time. For clubs where that is not feasible or wanted, the WSBs simply have to include all aspects of a start position; where in or out of the shooting area, direction facing, hand position.

Edited June 2, 2014 by remoandiris

[deacon12224]

I emailed JA. In a future Front Sight, he'll discuss the start position if it isn't fully defined in the WSB. According to him, if one item (such as hand position) isn't stated in the WSB, it reverts to the default.

Once it is published in FS, it is a rule.

I know this is an old thread, but did the Front Sight article mentioned here ever get published? I feel like I saw it but can't find it now.

Seems like the whole "unless otherwise specified" thing has yet to be resolved.