#'s for Discussion

[Bosshoss]

I have been tracking the numbers since the rule change and thought I would post them for discussion.

Here is the breakdown by class since the rule change.

3-15-2014 4-15-2014 5-15-2014

GM-20 GM-20 GM-23

M-52 M-57 M-57

A-149 A-153 A-153

B-335 B-330 B-338

C-639 C-648 C-660

D-232 D-240 D-248

Totals

1427 1448 1479

Now before anyone starts thumping their chest and saying that the rule change has helped or hurt the division, lets think about the numbers. We are showing that we have a increase of a little over 50 shooters that have a classification BUT remember that a lot of shooters have a classification and don't shoot revolver anymore or borrowed a gun just to get a classification and don't plan on shooting revolver ever again. We also lost some revolver shooters that were upset with the rule change and they moved on to other divisions, but they are still included in the #'s above. So the increase isn't as big as 50+ shooters that the numbers show. I will continue to track the #'s and update them as time goes by and more shooters get classified. I wish I had been tracking the #'s for the last year or two as I don't know how much the #'s were increasing before the rule change(normal increase).

We are also starting to see the shooters move up in classification as the reinstated classifiers start getting shot with 8 shot guns.

3 new GM's this month and 3 new Masters and 3 new A's.

I'm not saying that all of these are because of the new rules but I know some of them are. I myself just need one more of the reinstated classifiers to make GM.( Assuming I don't screw it up) I don't consider myself anywhere near a GM level shooter. I did make Master under the old rules and this feels like cheating making GM because of a rule change.

IMO the classifiers should have stayed pulled but the masses said otherwise.

I have heard the argument that getting classed to high will show when you get to a Major and don't finish anywhere near your classification %. This is true but some of the shooters that are getting classed to high are not doing it on purpose they are just shooting the classifier that the local match has set up.

As for the performance at majors and shooting the % you are rated at here are some numbers from 2014 Revolver nationals.

3 of 9 GM's shot 95% or above

1 of 14 Master shot above 85%

4 of 18 A's shot above 75%

12 of 27 B's shot above 60%

26 of 27 C's shot above 40%

The number of shooters that shot above their class

1 Master shot above 95%

0 A's shot above 85%

1 B shot above 75%

5 C's shot above 60%

1 of the C shooters above was listed as U on the results but he actually was a C.

It looks like a lot of shooters are not shooting to their %.

This is not a sour grapes post I just thought it would be interesting and lead to some "hopefully" good discussion.

Edited May 15, 2014 by Bosshoss

[MWP]

3 new GMs this month. One of them was a match bump from nationals. One of them I have no idea about.

One of them made sure to do it with his 625, or only use the 627 where it was not an advantage.

Is there a way we can get HHFs changed on the classifiers in question without making a pile on GMs or 100%ers?

Edited May 15, 2014 by MWP

[BHill]

Thanks for the information Bosshoss. Appreciate your time putting that together.

BHill

[Carmoney]

We already had class inflation in Revolver Division (i.e. a bunch of guys who can't shoot to their class in actual competition). Looks like USPSA needs to adjust the HHFs on the affected classifiers to make sure this situation doesn't get even worse.

[ChrisC]

But if you notice it happens in all divisions at nationals.

[cas]

We've got a whole mess of new revolver shooters locally and they're all shooting 625s.

[Racinready300ex]

I posted this in the other thread, I'll include it here too.

I was wondering how different class shooters fair at Nationals for other divisions. Just took a quick look at production nationals from last year. Kind of interesting. Close to 300 shooters so the numbers should be pretty good.

1 of 33 GM's above 95%

2 of 49 M's above 85%

0 of 53 A's above 75%

6 of 73 B's above 60%

32 of 49 C's above 40% (Lost count pretty close)

So are the HHF wrong for production also? I think comparing classifier % to you overall finish is a little miss leading. At least just looking at %'s. Your % isn't just based on how well you shoot, but how well someone else shoots. So it's going to very based on who shows up and will change at every match. Is Ben really not a GM because he only shot 94%? But he's the national champion?

Another way to look at is scrolling down throught the results for the Most part the GM's are at the top, then come the M's, then A's, and the D's are at the bottom. The system isn't prefect but it is working. At least for production.

Now can we say the same thing for revolver? Looking at the overall this year, GM's at the top. There are more M's then A's in the top 20, but they are some what mixed up. And again we have that question of how many of those M's don't really shoot revolver. Same goes for the A's doesn't it? If you are M in one division, I think you get bumped to A in the others. So I don't know that you can really tell anything for sure from nationals results in our division.

Now I think watching the number of shooters increase, and the numbers of GM's increase is interesting. Like Bosshoss, I wish someone had thought to start tracking that info before the rule change so we could tell if it had changed. But, with such low numbers we should be able to see things changing. Maybe we should all go GB and double, or triple the number of GM's and see if that throughs up a red flag at HQ.

Mike

Mike Ennis

A81062

[Bosshoss]

We already had class inflation in Revolver Division (i.e. a bunch of guys who can't shoot to their class in actual competition). Looks like USPSA needs to adjust the HHFs on the affected classifiers to make sure this situation doesn't get even worse.

Mike you have been saying this for years(class inflation) and I don't agree with this as I see the same thing for all divisions not just revolver. Here is a look at the most recent Nationals.

Open 2013

GM 4 of 40 shot to classification

M 0 of 61

A 5 of 61

B 18 of 60

C 22 of 27

LIMITED 10

GM 4 of 11

M 0 of 9

A 3 of 11

B 12 of 26

C 13 of 20

Production

GM 1 of 33

M 2 of 49

A 0 of 53

B 12 of 73

C 34 OF 49

LIMITED

GM 8 of 36

M 3 of 41

A 7 of 49

B 25 of 63

C 32 of 38

SS

GM 4 of 12

M 9 of 41

A 7 of 40

B 45 of 96

C 83 of 104

The numbers look about the same across all divisions.

Is the system perfect NO but at least everyone shot the same classifiers with the same equipment that is a problem now as not everyone is using the same equipment in Revolver.

As far as USPSA adjusting the HHF's, this should be done monthly to fix this as soon as possible.

Myself and others have been asking how USPSA was going to address this for OVER A YEAR NOW.

[Carmoney]

The problem may exist in all divisions, but there is no question that a few years back it suddenly became remarkably easier to make GM in Revolver Division. It happened because USPSA changed the way the HHFs were calculated.

I am an honest M-level revolver shooter, and have historically shot to an 85% level a reasonable amount of the time (but certainly not always!), at a match that is attended by the best wheelgunners. And yet I can beat at least half of the revolver GMs pretty much every time. To me, this means those guys are overclassed. The majority of the GMs in Revolver will never hit 95% against Jerry or Rob.

I suppose you make a valid point that there are bunches of "classifier GMs" in the other divisions also. Maybe we were simply the last division where this happened. There is no question that the classification structure has an upward bias. And we all know there are "stand and shoot" guys who do really well on classifiers compared to their overall capability.

When we have enough Revolver Division shooters participating to make the classification system work in this division, this will become important. Until and unless this happens, it really doesn't matter much--when we only have a few people shooting wheels, don't we really compete heads-up anyway?

[ihocky2]

I can add that at least a couple of those increased classified members are from new clubs. One started running USPSA near me which increased local interest and brought out a few guys who shot a lot of ICORE and IDPA with revolvers but not USPSA since the next closest was over an hour away and they could shoot IDPA within 20 minutes. A lot of people didn't want to make the drive. Now, for revolver it is probably 5 of those 50 new classifications, maybe a hair more.

[hopalong]

Don't let Carmoney fool you. As in all divisions there are the few exceptions (Jerry as an example) then there are the Journeymen that most work their ass off trying to catch Jerry. NATIONAL Champ Cliff Walsh is a perfect example. In about 2004 several of us started attending matches together. Cliff and l were B class back then as was Carmoney who was coming out of semi retirement to be a good husband and father.

Even then unless Jerry was there it was a horse race with about a half dozen of us to win the match. Along comes Josh, Matt, and the competition gets a little harder with any of us having the possibility of winning.

Most all of the guys made GM with a few hold outs like Carmoney who can still run with the best even if he says he can't.

As far as the title GM goes all those that made it before the 8 shot minor change pretty much earned it and deserve it in my opinion, but that is my opinion and 2 bucks will get you not even 100 primers.

Since the change l have talked to several friends who shot 100%+ classifiers with their 8 shots on 6 shot type classifiers who are freaking out because they are B, A and a C class laying down these high scores. Will it mess up the ranking? Likely, but that happens in all the divisions any way.

My hope is that having the new rule brings in more participation at all levels, and at the local level especially. Then with time the percentages will start to even back out.

HOPALONG