Popper requires multiple hits before falling: REF or not? Split from a

[motosapiens]

Popper question ever settled?

Yes it did thank god. No reshoot once a popper is shot down.

Unless it's nationals and troy and john decide otherwise.

Or any other unusual situation where the popper has obviously been incorrectly set or malfunctioned and must be repaired, replaced, fixed before the match can continue.

Edited March 31, 2014 by motosapiens

[Strick]

This thread and some of the logic in it is baffling. If a shooter drives a popper down...........that means it fell over/went down/is no longer standing so how is that a REF for a popper not falling. The shooter has options, I would recommend they use them, ht the popper and it is still standing call for a calibration and if is indeed set to heavy then it won't pass so they get a reshoot, if it falls then the score stands. This is not all that hard to understand or comprehend unless you try some real mental gymnastics to justify a reshoot or a stance you have about violating rules.

[motosapiens]

This thread and some of the logic in it is baffling. If a shooter drives a popper down...........that means it fell over/went down/is no longer standing so how is that a REF for a popper not falling. The shooter has options, I would recommend they use them, ht the popper and it is still standing call for a calibration and if is indeed set to heavy then it won't pass so they get a reshoot, if it falls then the score stands. This is not all that hard to understand or comprehend unless you try some real mental gymnastics to justify a reshoot or a stance you have about violating rules.

We're not talking about the shooter's options imho. It is pretty clear what the shooter's options are. We're talking about the RO/RM's options in occasional exceptional situations, like when a forward falling popper is set incorrectly, or some other drastic setup problem.

[Strick]

You keep overlooking the fact that if the shooter uses their option of a calibration then this issue will be noticed and fixed and they will still get a reshoot. I am not sure why that is difficult to see. If they shoot it down then the popper functioned...........it fell so they don't receive a reshoot.

[motosapiens]

You keep overlooking the fact that if the shooter uses their option of a calibration then this issue will be noticed and fixed and they will still get a reshoot. I am not sure why that is difficult to see. If they shoot it down then the popper functioned...........it fell so they don't receive a reshoot.

I'm not overlooking that at all. Everybody knows that. It's not difficult to see.

But even if a popper eventually gets shot down, there are some exceptional situations that may warrant a reshoot, for an individual or possibly for a whole squad, same as for any piece of equipment that is set up or reset incorrectly so that it doesn't present the same shooting challenge to each competitor.

Edited March 31, 2014 by motosapiens

[Nik Habicht]

If you were to decide to arbitrarily, and in violation of these rules to issue a reshoot to a competitor who you felt had experienced range equipment failure because you felt compelled to adjust the popper after the run, there would be consequences to such an action. In the event of a third party appeal to arbitration, you would have put the RM in a difficult position -- I'm not sure the RM could keep the stage in the match.

Because reshoots have the potential to affect every other competitor in a division, I request that scores be preserved and that I be consulted before any reshoot is ordered for a competitor at matches where I function as range master.

Again, I urge you to discuss the situation with your RMI if you are unwilling to take our word for it......

First off, I don't believe it's arbitrary, or in violation of any rules.

Second, earlier you posted that this would be an RM scoring decision and not subject to arbitration. Now you're saying that it wouldn't be a scoring decision? and subject to 3rd party arbitration? Ok.

I don't see how it would be different if you change the presentation of a target to fix a problem AFTER someone has shot it.

You're clearly trolling now......

Competitor shoots popper down. RO calls a miss. No one protests -- end of story.....

Competitor shoots popper down, RO calls miss, Competitor appeals to CRO who also calls a miss, competitor asks for RM. RM upholds the call -- end of story.

Competitor shoots popper down, RO calls a miss, competitor appeals, CRO motosapiens decides to order a reshoot, third party competitor in the same division decides to appeal the issuance of the reshoot, RM is called. CRO decided not to preserve the original score -- RM decides that it is impossible to restore competitive equity, and reluctantly tosses the stage from the match. Is that your best outcome?

Issuing the reshoot isn't a scoring call......

Could I be wrong about this? Sure. After ~ 12 years as an RO, and ~ 8 as a CRO is it likely I'm wrong on this one? Nope.......

[motosapiens]

If you were to decide to arbitrarily, and in violation of these rules to issue a reshoot to a competitor who you felt had experienced range equipment failure because you felt compelled to adjust the popper after the run, there would be consequences to such an action. In the event of a third party appeal to arbitration, you would have put the RM in a difficult position -- I'm not sure the RM could keep the stage in the match.

Because reshoots have the potential to affect every other competitor in a division, I request that scores be preserved and that I be consulted before any reshoot is ordered for a competitor at matches where I function as range master.

Again, I urge you to discuss the situation with your RMI if you are unwilling to take our word for it......

First off, I don't believe it's arbitrary, or in violation of any rules.

Second, earlier you posted that this would be an RM scoring decision and not subject to arbitration. Now you're saying that it wouldn't be a scoring decision? and subject to 3rd party arbitration? Ok.

I don't see how it would be different if you change the presentation of a target to fix a problem AFTER someone has shot it.

You're clearly trolling now......

Competitor shoots popper down. RO calls a miss. No one protests -- end of story.....

Competitor shoots popper down, RO calls miss, Competitor appeals to CRO who also calls a miss, competitor asks for RM. RM upholds the call -- end of story.

Competitor shoots popper down, RO calls a miss, competitor appeals, CRO motosapiens decides to order a reshoot, third party competitor in the same division decides to appeal the issuance of the reshoot, RM is called. CRO decided not to preserve the original score -- RM decides that it is impossible to restore competitive equity, and reluctantly tosses the stage from the match. Is that your best outcome?

Issuing the reshoot isn't a scoring call......

Could I be wrong about this? Sure. After ~ 12 years as an RO, and ~ 8 as a CRO is it likely I'm wrong on this one? Nope.......

One of us may be trolling. In the situation you describe, why would the RO call a miss if the popper was shot down?

However in the situation I described, where the popper plainly is presented differently to different people because of a malfunction or incorrect reset, I think it would not be unreasonable to do the same as the RM's at nationals did. They may have even more RO and CRO time than you. Or maybe they screwed up (but I don't think so). I think if range equipment presents differently due to malfunction or incorrect reset, a reshoot *may* be the correct call.

It's optimal if you just make sure everything works, but hiding behind a rule and screwing someone over when everyone knows it was an equipment setup problem is lame. I would try to avoid doing that if possible.

But hey, we're having fun speculating now, let's speculate some more:

First sqad of the day, Shooter hits popper several times in the scoring zone, it finally falls. On reset, CRO notices that the popper is backwards. It's a forward faller, but it was setup wrong. Says 'crap', turns popper around the correct way, tells competitor 'sucks to be you, but vee haff rules. Ordnung muss sein.' Competitor says "wtf, you just changed the stage, will you please call the RM."?

What does the RM say?

Edited March 31, 2014 by motosapiens

[rvb]

can we just change the whole steel concept to static steel? If hit you get the 5 pts, if not, you get the mike. paint between shooters. treat it like steel challenge. we have the chrono for determining power factor; we dont need steel to fall.

that would make setup easier, eliminate re-shoots, eliminate steel calibratoin changing due to environment (wind, soft ground, etc). existing steel owned by clubs could be easily converted (or if they are designed to fall, eg plates, a hit is a hit regardless of how it reacts...)

I hate our steel rules.

-rvb

Edited April 1, 2014 by rvb

[whitedog]

I hate I can't have 23 rounds in production.

Contact yer AD and present it.

I did about PRO mag limit...over a beer. ?

[JAFO]

I hate I can't have 23 rounds in production.

Isn't that pretty much Limited Minor?

[rvb]

Contact yer AD and present it.

how about we discuss it? Does the idea of making steel static vs falling have merit? Are there issues that I'm overlooking? My [our] AD is a moderator here; he'll see the discussion. If after we discuss it it seems like a good idea, I'll happily email him about it. This is a discussion board, right?

It would slightly change the way we shoot the game, but would avoid a host of equity issues for shooters...

it's time to evolve out of the 70s. we have chronos to measure ammo's power factor. let old/bad methods die.

-rvb

Edited April 1, 2014 by rvb

[whitedog]

Would work if every match had a chrono. Sadly, they don't.

[rvb]

Would work if every match had a chrono. Sadly, they don't.

And of those that do, not all have the 'recommended' <125pf calibration ammo, so it's still possible to have legal ammo and get screwed by the range equipment and calibration system. Perhaps the compromise is make chrono mandatory for Level 2s?

I figured the first argument I'd hear would be about activators for moving targets. My thought there is a mandatory reshoot if it doesn't fall. Someone running sub minor would probably not like reshoot after reshoot on stages w. Moving targets....

Just thinking out loud. The status quo sucks.

-rvb

[motosapiens]

Just thinking out loud. The status quo sucks.

What is it that bugs you so much about the status quo. I think falling steel is funner to hit, and in the winter (temps in the teens and below), painting steel for each shooter would be royal pain, but if you don't paint it, you're guessing about what got hit.

[Chills1994]

A popper =/= chrono

A popper =/= ballistic pendulum.

[rvb]

Just thinking out loud. The status quo sucks.

What is it that bugs you so much about the status quo. I think falling steel is funner to hit, and in the winter (temps in the teens and below), painting steel for each shooter would be royal pain, but if you don't paint it, you're guessing about what got hit.

i agree it's fun...

...unless a popper doesn't fall w/ 1/2 dozen hits but does for the RM on the calibration call, despite your ammo being legal.

...unless a solid hit causes an activator not to activate, meaning you have to go back and hit it in order to get access to additional targets

...unless you have a good run going, but are forced into a re-shoot due to calibration and then have a bad run

...unless rules aren't followed re. plates must fall or re-shoot (seems at club matches this is often ignored)

...unless you have a good run going and the wind blows a popper over.

should I go on?

I just RM'd a Level 2 match. The match had it all... rain, snow, super-saturated ground, and wind. 14 times I was called for calibration. I have no idea how many times poppers reqd multiple hits where the shooter didn't risk a calibration. I'd guess it was about 50/50 whether they got a re-shoot, so approx 7 reshoots due to won calibration, and approx 7 shooters who had good hits but had to eat mikes. Doesn't seem like everyone's shooting performance is getting treated fairly under our rules, despite hard work by the ROs to try to keep the poppers set in the very soft ground and wind (constantly needing adjusting).

-rvb

Edited April 2, 2014 by rvb

[Ben Stoeger]

I just RM'd a Level 2 match. The match had it all... rain, snow, super-saturated ground, and wind. 14 times I was called for calibration. I have no idea how many times poppers reqd multiple hits where the shooter didn't risk a calibration. I'd guess it was about 50/50 whether they got a re-shoot, so approx 7 reshoots due to won calibration, and approx 7 shooters who had good hits but had to eat mikes. Doesn't seem like everyone's shooting performance is getting treated fairly under our rules, despite hard work by the ROs to try to keep the poppers set in the very soft ground and wind (constantly needing adjusting).

Sounds fair

[rvb]

I just RM'd a Level 2 match. The match had it all... rain, snow, super-saturated ground, and wind. 14 times I was called for calibration. I have no idea how many times poppers reqd multiple hits where the shooter didn't risk a calibration. I'd guess it was about 50/50 whether they got a re-shoot, so approx 7 reshoots due to won calibration, and approx 7 shooters who had good hits but had to eat mikes. Doesn't seem like everyone's shooting performance is getting treated fairly under our rules, despite hard work by the ROs to try to keep the poppers set in the very soft ground and wind (constantly needing adjusting).

Sounds fair

I know, right? and my calibration ammo met the recommendations (9mm, 120pf). but it knocked some steel down that the competitors' ammo didn't. thems the rules...... sucks.

-rvb

[motosapiens]

I just RM'd a Level 2 match. The match had it all... rain, snow, super-saturated ground, and wind. 14 times I was called for calibration. I have no idea how many times poppers reqd multiple hits where the shooter didn't risk a calibration. I'd guess it was about 50/50 whether they got a re-shoot, so approx 7 reshoots due to won calibration, and approx 7 shooters who had good hits but had to eat mikes. Doesn't seem like everyone's shooting performance is getting treated fairly under our rules, despite hard work by the ROs to try to keep the poppers set in the very soft ground and wind (constantly needing adjusting).

So the 7 shooters who ate mikes had actual scoring zone hits? not edge hits or below the zone? That would be annoying.

I would think it would be wise to take special steps with a windy and wet match. I've heard of mounting poppers on plywood so they don't sink into the ground and need readjusting.

But whatever, I understand what you're talking about now, thanks for clarifying. I've only seen one misbehaving popper in my short uspsa career.

Edited April 2, 2014 by motosapiens

[rvb]

I just RM'd a Level 2 match. The match had it all... rain, snow, super-saturated ground, and wind. 14 times I was called for calibration. I have no idea how many times poppers reqd multiple hits where the shooter didn't risk a calibration. I'd guess it was about 50/50 whether they got a re-shoot, so approx 7 reshoots due to won calibration, and approx 7 shooters who had good hits but had to eat mikes. Doesn't seem like everyone's shooting performance is getting treated fairly under our rules, despite hard work by the ROs to try to keep the poppers set in the very soft ground and wind (constantly needing adjusting).

So the 7 shooters who ate mikes had actual scoring zone hits? not edge hits or below the zone? That would be annoying.

I would think it would be wise to take special steps with a windy and wet match. I've heard of mounting poppers on plywood so they don't sink into the ground and need readjusting.

But whatever, I understand what you're talking about now, thanks for clarifying.

there was 1 edge hit I recall where I thought walking up to do the cal he'd be damn lucky if it didn't fall (it did). There might have been 1 or two slightly below the zone, but I mean just slightly (eg a couple inches, not down at the base). an edge hit is still a hit in every other shooting situation (paper targets or steel challenge, for instance).

we did everything we could... plywood bases on many of the poppers, shovelled in stone, etc. Some of the ROs were checking/adjusting them after every shooter.

-rvb

Edited April 2, 2014 by rvb

[Chills1994]

@ rvb, if the RO's were checking/adjusting poppers after every shooter, how did they know they weren't setting them too heavy?

Maybe the USPSA rulebook needs to be changed to leave it up to the MD's/RM's discretion to change how steel gets scored based on changing ground or weather conditions.

Maybe if the poppers could be clamped or set up to be a static steel.

[frag316]

What good would static steel be? Just go to a paper target at that point. Are you going to award full points to someone who just hits the steel? There's no scoring zones on a popper, so how would that work?

And, before you get all twisted, I'm genuinely asking the question, because I want to hear your thought process behind your suggestion. I don't see it as tenable.

[Chills1994]

The Cliff's notes version is:

If you were to look at 4.3.1.1 and see the part where "poppers are designed to recognize power" and with a a basic understanding of high school physics that a popper also "recognizes" how the bullet is constructed and what materials it is made from.

So the underlying premise is wrong.

That and if you read the wiki on how an actual ballistic pendulum is constructed, you'd see that a popper is not a ballistic pendulum.

There has been at least one Area Director here who has advocated the used of full size USPSA pepper poppers made static at a start up steel club's matches. That could just as easily be made a two way street where a static popper or static steel is used at a USPSA match.

New rulebook provisions could be added to allow that to happen based on match director's/range master's discretion WRT to less than an ideal weather or ground conditions.

The same new rulebook provisons can just as easily make the static popper calibration zone and above hit worth 5 points, the same as if it had fallen. A hit anywhere else is a miss.

There is no need for any additional scoring zones on any steel, especially a popper.

Now, did that seem to get me so "twisted"?

[frag316]

Well, you have a tendency to think my responses to you are based on some sort of malice, rather than asking questions or making a point, which is why I included the statement.

I think you're proceeding from a false premise here. 4.3.1.1 says steel is designed to recognize power, which is different from what a ballistic pendulum does (they measure power). If we were using the popper to determine whether the gun meets the required power factor, then you'd be correct in your assertion and we'd use calibration ammo that makes minor, not sub-minor ammo. We use chronographs to measure the power, so steel is designed to be a dynamic target that recognizes the balance between power and accuracy by being able to knock over steel with a valid hit. It's also designed to be a target easily restored and provide a different challenge to the shooter. Because it's dynamic, we're also able to use it to activate other types of targets, which increases the fun factor for a match.

If we went to static steel, I think most clubs would probably forgo the expense of buying it. At that point, just have more paper to make up for the missing steel, because the steel is nothing more than a heavy and expensive paper target.

[Chills1994]

I am not saying to use static steel all the time even on those picture postcard perfect weather days.

I am saying that, for example, the match gets set up on Wednesday, Thursday, Friday day, and come Friday night a big rainstorm comes through where on Saturday's match day the ground is too muddy for the poppers to hold calibration, give the match directors/RM's the discretion to fix the poppers upright, to make them static.

Or if it is extremely wind on match day.

It may be true that a popper "recognizes power", but it also inadvertently measures the bullet's construction.

That whole statement in 4.3.1.1 could probably be done away with. Just the word "power" by itself is not defined in the glossary, Appendix A3.

Heck, for that matter "power factor" is not even defined in the glossary.