Critique This Stage Design

[Ssanders224]

Thanks for the feedback.

Heres another I threw together a minute ago. It gives a little risk/reward opportunity.

havent decided on a start position yet, but anyone see any issues? After drawing it, I figured that the two front walls should be sno fence, so that the RO can see the shooter from any angle. Also, the two closest targets, at the end of the front wall, would be angled so that shoot through isnt a problem.

ETA:

I'll also probably add a couple of targets, to force a reload in Limited.

there are some shoot through issues with the targets to the outside of the front walls, and I think if you hold the fault lines back from the ends of the center walls you could do away with the down range walls (I assume they are there to make you shoot the partial targets through the center opening)

Go back and read the thread a little. The shoot through issue has been discussed in multiple posts, and my intent for the different shooting areas on stage 2 has also been explained.

There are shooting areas in front of the down range walls.

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[Ssanders224]

Here's another.

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[McCringleberry]

Wow! Nice, that looks like a fun stage now...

[Ssanders224]

Another.

[alma]

Creative use of the shooting areas on all of these.

What is the distance to that first middle popper? You need to make sure they can't engage that one from too close.

[Ssanders224]

Creative use of the shooting areas on all of these.

What is the distance to that first middle popper? You need to make sure they can't engage that one from too close.

The first middle popper would be at the minimun distance (7yds?) from the closest two shooting areas... but the trick is, you cannot engage (see) the second 2 poppers from those close areas. SO, the 3 midde poppers really need to be engaged before you ever advance to the down range shooting areas (if you choose to do so). The entire stage COULD be shot without ever advancing out of the first (largest) shooting area.

[McCringleberry]

The last one has a few things to think about. The first one is what if someone shoots one of the three NS targets and there is a hit on the target, how are you going to determine if it was a shoot through (shot count is not always accurate). Second, on the three poppers, since there is a fault line and shooters might go over, it has to be 26` to the popper. Also, even if you say that the poppers can't be engaged from the front boxes, some will on accident and be DQ'ed. Its better to make them 26' from any shooting area. Good design but a few small tweaks needed.

[Sarge]

Open up to large shooting areas instead of a series if boxes. This will do two things. Create options and eliminate tripping hazards

[Ssanders224]

The last one has a few things to think about. The first one is what if someone shoots one of the three NS targets and there is a hit on the target, how are you going to determine if it was a shoot through (shot count is not always accurate). Second, on the three poppers, since there is a fault line and shooters might go over, it has to be 26` to the popper. Also, even if you say that the poppers can't be engaged from the front boxes, some will on accident and be DQ'ed. Its better to make them 26' from any shooting area. Good design but a few small tweaks needed.

The distance to poppers is what I commented on in the post before yours. I stated the poppers would be at the minimum distance they can be from the closest shooting areas (the two downrange boxes).

As to the no-shoots. Thats a good thought. I know Ive seen no-shoots stapled around ports in walls, and used as vision barriers in the past.... but I guess they do create a problem when used in this fashion? Darn.

[Ssanders224]

Open up to large shooting areas instead of a series if boxes. This will do two things. Create options and eliminate tripping hazards

Thanks for the suggestions.

However, there are plenty of options and risk vs reward scenarios on the last couple of stages I posted.

As to trip hazards, USPSA thinks its ok to run from box to box for classifiers, we ask shooters to run up & down stairs, walk on swinging brigdes, shoot from elevated platforms with no railing, and stand on wobbly platforms held up by springs at Major matches.

Crossing a small fault line here or there should be ok.

[alma]

23 feet is the minimum distance for shooting steel but if using Fault lines they must be at 26 feet minimum.

[BillChunn]

Open up to large shooting areas instead of a series if boxes. This will do two things. Create options and eliminate tripping hazards

Thanks for the suggestions.

However, there are plenty of options and risk vs reward scenarios on the last couple of stages I posted.

As to trip hazards, USPSA thinks its ok to run from box to box for classifiers, we ask shooters to run up & down stairs, walk on swinging brigdes, shoot from elevated platforms with no railing, and stand on wobbly platforms held up by springs at Major matches.

Crossing a small fault line here or there should be ok.

What Sarge is trying to say (if I'm reading it correctly) is that getting rid of the shooting boxes and making it one big free fire zone introduces more options on the stage.

There will always be trip hazards due to fault lines. Fewer fault lines means fewer trip hazards.

PM sent.

BC

Edited March 17, 2014 by BillChunn

[Sarge]

There is also the new rule which prohibits using shooting boxes on long courses

[Ssanders224]

There is also the new rule which prohibits using shooting boxes on long courses

I should probably just go read... but, how are "shooting boxes" defined in the rule book?

ie, if I break a large shooting area in half with a fault line, have I created two shooting boxes? Does a long course HAVE to be one big continual shooting area?

[Ssanders224]

Open up to large shooting areas instead of a series if boxes. This will do two things. Create options and eliminate tripping hazards

Thanks for the suggestions.

However, there are plenty of options and risk vs reward scenarios on the last couple of stages I posted.

As to trip hazards, USPSA thinks its ok to run from box to box for classifiers, we ask shooters to run up & down stairs, walk on swinging brigdes, shoot from elevated platforms with no railing, and stand on wobbly platforms held up by springs at Major matches.

Crossing a small fault line here or there should be ok.

What Sarge is trying to say (if I'm reading it correctly) is that getting rid of the shooting boxes and making it one big free fire zone introduces more options on the stage.

There will always be trip hazards due to fault lines. Fewer fault lines means fewer trip hazards.

PM sent.

BC

Yea, I understand that, and believe me, I'm a proponent of options and tru freestyle shooting.

However, the individual shooting areas in the last two stages I posted have specific purposes. There are still options and risk/reward shots on the stages, but the shooting areas restrict shooters from engaging certain targets at certain points in the stage. Just like any wall or barrel or other barrier would do.

[Sarge]

Using your comment above I think they are shooting boxes. You are specifically using them to make a shooter engage certain targets from certain places. 1.1.5 seems pretty clear to me. Also shooting box is defined in the rule book as a small box generally square consisting of four fault lines connected together

Edited March 17, 2014 by Sarge

[Ssanders224]

Using your comment above I think they are shooting boxes. You are specifically using them to make a shooter engage certain targets from certain places. 1.1.5 seems pretty clear to me. Also shooting box is defined in the rule book as a small box generally square consisting of four fault lines connected together

1.1.5 Freestyle – USPSA matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permitted to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot targets on an "as and when visible" basis. Courses of fire must not require mandatory reloads nor dictate a shooting position, location or stance, except as specified below. However, conditions may be created, and barriers or other physical limitations may be constructed, to compel a competitor into shooting positions, locations or stances.

1.1.5 is NOT pretty clear to me. If a target is only avaliable through a port on a wall, is that not dictating a shooting "location"?

On the other hand, almost all of the targets in the last two stages I posted are avliable from different "locations" (as defined in the 2014 rule book). IMO, they very much meet the definition of freestyle.

2.2.1 Competitor movement may be restricted or controlled through the use of physical barriers, Fault Lines, Shooting Boxes, or Off-Limits Lines.

1.2.1.3

Long Courses: in Level III or higher matches must not require more than 32 rounds to complete. At any level match, course design and construction must not require more than 8 scoring hits from any single location or view, nor allow a competitor to shoot all targets in the course of fire from any single location or view.

Considering the rules above, I see no problem with the shooting areas I drew in the stages.

There might be a rule in the 2014 handbook that states shooting boxes cannot be used in long courses, but if so, I missed it. If that is the case, please point me in the direction of that rule.

[alma]

Not a shooting box. Effect may be the same but it's legal.

[Ssanders224]

Not a shooting box. Effect may be the same but it's legal.

Cool.

That's what I figured.

Here's a revision for anyone that didn't like the no- shoots.

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[Sarge]

Using your comment above I think they are shooting boxes. You are specifically using them to make a shooter engage certain targets from certain places. 1.1.5 seems pretty clear to me. Also shooting box is defined in the rule book as a small box generally square consisting of four fault lines connected together

1.1.5 Freestyle – USPSA matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permitted to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot targets on an "as and when visible" basis. Courses of fire must not require mandatory reloads nor dictate a shooting position, location or stance, except as specified below. However, conditions may be created, and barriers or other physical limitations may be constructed, to compel a competitor into shooting positions, locations or stances.

1.1.5 is NOT pretty clear to me. If a target is only avaliable through a port on a wall, is that not dictating a shooting "location"?

On the other hand, almost all of the targets in the last two stages I posted are avliable from different "locations" (as defined in the 2014 rule book). IMO, they very much meet the definition of freestyle.

2.2.1 Competitor movement may be restricted or controlled through the use of physical barriers, Fault Lines, Shooting Boxes, or Off-Limits Lines.

1.2.1.3

Long Courses: in Level III or higher matches must not require more than 32 rounds to complete. At any level match, course design and construction must not require more than 8 scoring hits from any single location or view, nor allow a competitor to shoot all targets in the course of fire from any single location or view.

Considering the rules above, I see no problem with the shooting areas I drew in the stages.

There might be a rule in the 2014 handbook that states shooting boxes cannot be used in long courses, but if so, I missed it. If that is the case, please point me in the direction of that rule.

You should not even be looking at an old rule book anymore.

From the new rule book:

1.1.5.1 Level I matches may use shooting boxes, specify where or

when specific target arrays may be engaged and specify

mandatory reloads in short and medium courses only. Long

courses are exclusively governed by 1.1.5.

As for your port question:

Courses of fire must not

require mandatory reloads nor dictate a shooting position, location or

stance, except as specified below. However, conditions may be created,

and barriers or other physical limitations may be constructed, to compel

a competitor into shooting positions, locations or stances.

You can use ports, doors, windows, walls, etc but not shooting boxes

[Ssanders224]

Using your comment above I think they are shooting boxes. You are specifically using them to make a shooter engage certain targets from certain places. 1.1.5 seems pretty clear to me. Also shooting box is defined in the rule book as a small box generally square consisting of four fault lines connected together

1.1.5 Freestyle – USPSA matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permitted to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot targets on an "as and when visible" basis. Courses of fire must not require mandatory reloads nor dictate a shooting position, location or stance, except as specified below. However, conditions may be created, and barriers or other physical limitations may be constructed, to compel a competitor into shooting positions, locations or stances.

1.1.5 is NOT pretty clear to me. If a target is only avaliable through a port on a wall, is that not dictating a shooting "location"?

On the other hand, almost all of the targets in the last two stages I posted are avliable from different "locations" (as defined in the 2014 rule book). IMO, they very much meet the definition of freestyle.

2.2.1 Competitor movement may be restricted or controlled through the use of physical barriers, Fault Lines, Shooting Boxes, or Off-Limits Lines.

1.2.1.3

Long Courses: in Level III or higher matches must not require more than 32 rounds to complete. At any level match, course design and construction must not require more than 8 scoring hits from any single location or view, nor allow a competitor to shoot all targets in the course of fire from any single location or view.

Considering the rules above, I see no problem with the shooting areas I drew in the stages.

There might be a rule in the 2014 handbook that states shooting boxes cannot be used in long courses, but if so, I missed it. If that is the case, please point me in the direction of that rule.

You should not even be looking at an old rule book anymore.

From the new rule book:

1.1.5.1 Level I matches may use shooting boxes, specify where or

when specific target arrays may be engaged and specify

mandatory reloads in short and medium courses only. Long

courses are exclusively governed by 1.1.5.

As for your port question:

Courses of fire must not

require mandatory reloads nor dictate a shooting position, location or

stance, except as specified below. However, conditions may be created,

and barriers or other physical limitations may be constructed, to compel

a competitor into shooting positions, locations or stances.

You can use ports, doors, windows, walls, etc but not shooting boxes

My quote was in fact pulled from the new rule book. Furthermore, I noted the 2014 rule book not once, but twice in my post.

Your assumption that I quoted the old book comes from the fact that I did not included 1.1.5.1? I had no reason to include it, since long courses are governed by 1.1.5.

I dictated no shooting positions with fault lines (boxes) in the last stage. All targets are available from multiple locations.

On the other stage, the same holds true. The only position that a shooter would be "compelled" to be in is dictated by a barrier blocking a target.

Again, thanks for the input though.

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[Sarge]

You're welcome.

Did you get the steel distances figured out? The 26 foot rule is correct when there is no barrier between the shooter and the steel. What you should do is place a secondary fault line in front of the main fault line as a reference for the RO's for DQ purposes.

Remember, if they can see it they can shoot it so you always want to make sure steel is safely placed where it is virtually impossible for somebody to shoot it illegally. i.e. make it so they can't even see it from anywhere inside prescribed distances.

[mosher]

ya'll using these stages at magnolia? i'd like to setup some of these at our match.

[Ssanders224]

ya'll using these stages at magnolia? i'd like to setup some of these at our match.

I'm submitting them to John, so it will be up to him. I'll let you know.

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