Stage Procedure interpretation needed

[Carmoney]

CM 99-05 Mob Job (16 rounds):

"Upon start signal, from Box A engage only T1-T4, then make a mandatory reload and from Box A engage only T5-T7, PP1, and PP2. Competitor may engage either array first, but a reload must be done before engaging the next array. Competitor may go back to pick up misses without doing another reload after completing the initial stage requirements."

My question is how the heck do you legally shoot this with a revolver? My son Sam is shooting this classifier tomorrow, and I want to give him good advice.

He's obviously going to need 2 reloads minimum, but must he make 3 in order to avoid drawing a procedural?

Can he legally do either of the following:

A. Shoot six rounds on the left array--reload--finish up the left side with two rounds and immediately move on to the right array with the remaining four rounds in the gun--reload--finish up the right side.

B. Shoot six rounds on the left array--reload--shoot six rounds on the right array--reload again and then finish up both sides.

Thanks,

Mike

[Jake Di Vita]

I believe option B is the way to do it in revolver.

[wide45]

Choice A is no good.

[Chuck D]

Choice "B" .

[Flexmoney]

Choice A is out...you will get a penalty for failing to follow the stage procedure.

Choice B is slow. That requires 4 speedloaders...and extra reload.

How about Choice C?

Something along these lines...

- Engage T1 and T2 with two rounds. Engage T3 and T4 with ONE round each. (stage procedure satisfied)

- Reload going to the next array.

- Engage T5 with one, PP1, T7 with one, PP2, T7 with the second round, T6 with one.

(That would leave the middle 4 targets with one round on them...)

- Reload.

- Put the second rounds into the targets that were only engaged with one round, T3, T4, T5, & T6. Leaving two extra rounds in the gun to make up any misses (steel?).

Complicated. But, legal...and it saves a reload.

[Flexmoney]

(I'd probably put the two rounds on T7 at once, but that makes it a bit tougher to remember.)

The target orders I used were just an example.

[Carmoney]

Thanks for everybody's input.

OK--I think I'm understanding that my Plan B above is illegal unless I actually engage each target on one array with at least one shot.

I can see several legal variations on Flex's Plan C that would seem to work fairly well and will save that extra reload. Cool!

[Bill Nesbitt]

With thinking like that Flex could be a Revolver GM in no time at all.

Bill Nesbitt

[wide45]

I read choice B, as being the same as C, but then I have shot Rev. in the past.

However,

It says "engage only T1-T4," so no penalty for not engaging each.

You can leave some targets unengaged, so long as you make the reload when changing arrays the first time.

"Competitor may engage either array first, but a reload must be done before engaging the next array."

Engaging any target from the second array completes the requirement, and allows you to go back to the first array at will.

"Competitor may go back to pick up misses without doing another reload after completing the initial stage requirements."

[Carmoney]

It says "engage only T1-T4," so no penalty for not engaging each.

You can leave some targets unengaged, so long as you make the reload when changing arrays the first time.

So can I leave some targets unengaged and still satisfy the stage requirement?

Is there a rule in the book on this, or is this just one of those situations where the rule can be interpreted differently by different ROs?

Perhaps this is the real question I was getting to along--would I have to shoot at each target at least once in order to "engage T1-T4" before making the mandatory reload?

wide45 says no, just as long as I engage some of the targets in the array.

jake and chuck seem to agree.

flex says yes, must fire at least one shot at each target.

several others, via private email, agree with flex.

Can anyone offer a cite to a rule in the book that I can point out, or will I just have to accept that it can be interpreted in a couple different ways and I'm at the mercy of the RO's viewpoint?

Thanks again,

Mike

[Nik Habicht]

Competitor may engage either array first, but a reload must be done before engaging the next array. Competitor may go back to pick up misses without doing another reload after completing the initial stage requirements."

I think if you choose to engage T1-3 with two rounds each, reload, engage T5-7 with two rounds each, and reload again to finish up, you'll incur procedurals for not reloading when switching arrays.

The way I'm reading this, you're only allowed a reload exemption for picking up misses, so you'll need to engage each target, before switching arrays. Since the WSB says nothing about engaging each target with a minimum number of rounds, you should be able to shoot Flex's plan --- but not Plan A or B.

[wide45]

A miss is simply the lack of a hit.

[mactiger]

The implication in this stage description is that you may pick up misses without reloading only after engaging each of the targets in a given array. While there isn't a specific rule besides 10.2.7, (which, IMO, would apply only if you didn't shoot at a target at least once, regardless of when), it would be my advice to follow the "FLEX Plan" on this one and avoid the discussion and controversy that will probably follow if you skipped a target or two, reloaded, changed arrays and then went back.

The stage briefing is sufficiently vague, and there is no rule to specifically address this in a Comstock stage, so I'd play it safe with my strategy and follow Flex's advice.

Good luck--I hope your son does well.

Troy

[Carmoney]

Troy:

I hear ya.

I do "discussion and controversy" for a living....so I'd much prefer to avoid adding any unnecessary doses of either into my recreational life!

Mike

[ipsc1]

Hmm, am I too literal, but the only restriction I see is a reload must be completed before engaging a target in the second array. So If I engage T1-T3, reload engage T4 and continue into the second array without a reload at that point, have I not complied with that one restriction? It does not say a relodd must be performed after engaging the last target of the first array and before engaging the first target of the second array.

While the first sentence refers to engaging of individual targets, the second only requires a reload between engagement of the arrays.

I'm doing the revolver thing now and that would have been my first choice.

ipsc1

[Carmoney]

ipsc1: So you would endorse Plan A as legal, right?

I wondered about that, too, which is why I posed it--seems the argument against is that the stage requirements say "...THEN make a mandatory reload..." describing exactly when the mandatory reload has to occur.

I'd say this is a poorly-written classifer stage.

Course designers should remember that stage instructions should make sense for all classes, including Revolver.

[Flexmoney]

I'd say this is a poorly-written classifer stage.

Course designers should remember that stage instructions should make sense for all classes, including Revolver.

I agree.

[ipsc1]

ipsc1: So you would endorse Plan A as legal, right?

I wondered about that, too, which is why I posed it--seems the argument against is that the stage requirements say "...THEN make a mandatory reload..." describing exactly when the mandatory reload has to occur.

I'd say this is a poorly-written classifer stage.

Course designers should remember that stage instructions should make sense for all classes, including Revolver.

Yes, plan A. The first sentence indicates a specific engagement order and reload point. The second sentence negates that by referring to arrays, not targets, providing a choice in engagement order and requiring only that a reload be performed between the point of engaging the first array and engaging the second array.

[wide45]

The second sentance does not contradict or negate the first.

[hopalong]

Mike,

This is how I would shoot this stage:

T4- 2 shots, T3- 2 shots, T2&T1 1 shot each

RELOAD

T5- 2shots, PP1,(make sure you hit PP1), PP2 (a miss is OK)

T7- 2shots

RELOAD T6 2 shots, (pp2 if needed) T1&2 one shot

It seems a little busy but will actually flow pretty good.

draw go from right to left, reload go left to right, reload go right to left, no mixing up of targets.

The BIGGEST thing is the two STEEL PP1 can't be left up and the time it takes to shoot those two is worth taking to make sure they are knocked down in one shot.

REMEMBER 1 well aimed shot is faster than 2 quick hopers.

Hope it helps, GO SAM !!!!! the youngest C class Revolver shooter in USPSA

HOPALONG

Bill, If only we could get Flex to lay that silly FLATSIDED BOTTOM FEEDER down!!!

[spook]

Why not this strategy?

Standing in box A Engage T1-T3 with 2 shots. Reload, engage T4 with 2 shots.

Reload engage T5 with 2 shots, popper, T7 with 2 shots, popper. Reload engage T6 with 2 shots.

[hopalong]

Spook,

Mike is trying to find the smoothest, fastest way to shoot this stage and have Sam(not me, his 11 yr old) reload only twice.

Idid not get to shoot with Mike and Sam at the Missouri Fall Classic but did get to see Sam shoot a couple of times and he is quite impressive, he handles the revo. well.

Besides, Any body named Sam that shoots Revolver has to be COOL!!

But I may be a little partial there.

Hopalong

[Carmoney]

After all this excellent feedback I'm sorta embarrassed to report that Young Sam and I didn't get to shoot this stage after all. The night before the match the actual temperature was in the single-digits and the wind was howlin' like crazy. The match was a 2-hour drive from home, and the match the weekend before was canceled because they couldn't keep the targets standing upright. (Frickin' Iowa, I'll never get used to the wind out here on these prairies....) Anyway, I wimped out and turned my alarm clock off and slept in. Sam wasn't very happy with me.

Still--one of the biggest areas we need to learn is course-of-fire strategy. Having learned to shoot on bowling pins, I have this natural tendency to stand in one place and shoot everything left to right, and reload only when the gun is empty. So everybody's input has been very useful to me, even though I haven't been able to apply any of it just yet. Spring is only a few months away, right?

Mike