3" Group

[TNGrumpy]

Shot my first reloads and they stunk. 100yds,off a lead sled, 10 rounds and got a 3" group. 748 powder, 69gr sierra blims,Winchester primers, once fired brass,2.25 OAL. I get 1 1/2 group with PMC 55gr now. What do I need to do to tighten this up? Thanks

[blairmckenzie1]

Caliber? Twist?

Blems probably aren't helping, but 3" is pretty big

[Flatland Shooter]

Is it a new barrel or has it been broken in?

My first rounds out of a new barrel last month was terrible but after a while, it turned out excellent.

[Hi-Power Jack]

How much powder? More or less might help tighten up the group size.

[TNGrumpy]

Sorry, 223 with 1-8 twist, 24.5gr powder, and barrel has been used for about 2000 rds.

[Nickoli]

I use 748 with 55s and get MOA groups. I tried it once with 77s SMKs but couldn't get the velocity I was looking for and my groups were between 1 and 1.5". I don't believe 748 to be a good powder for heavies but I could be wrong, i thought the burn rate was too fast.

The 77s I have are seconds and I consistently get 1/2 MOA groups using Varget and I get the velocity I want.

[Graham Smith]

Sounds like some inconsistency in your powder volumes, seating depth, "crimp", etc. Rifle rounds build up a lot of pressure and if that's not consistent, your velocity won't be and several other things come into play as well.

Have you run your loads through a chronograph?

Have you tried shooting at 25yds? If your groups are fairly tight at shorter distances then perhaps the bullets are unstable which will also cause the group to open up at 100yd

[bigedp51]

More inaccurate ammunition is reloaded than any other cause simply because the expander button is locked down off center inducing excessive neck runout.

If you want your reloads to have greater accuracy than factory ammunition then buy a good runout gauge and a case neck gauge.

SINCLAIR CONCENTRICITY GAUGE

http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloading-equipment/measuring-tools/concentricity-gauges/sinclair-concentricity-gauge-prod37479.aspx

Redding Case Neck Gage w/ Indicator

http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloading-equipment/measuring-tools/case-gauges-headspace-tools/redding-case-neck-gage-w-indicator-prod39927.aspx

You can't make a silk purse from a sows ear and you will not shoot tight groups with bad brass.

Bullet Run-Out:

http://www.gunnersden.com/index.htm.rifle-reloading-bullet-run-out.html

First you need cases with uniform neck and case wall thicknesses. (good brass and not seconds or rejects)

Then you need to check neck and bullet runout to make sure your sizing and seating operation isn't causing problems.

Much of the cheaper blasting ammo you see today are made from cartridge cases that failed quality inspection. Federal loaded the cases below after they failed Lake City Military quality control and not loaded as military ammunition.

I have three five gallon buckets of once fired .223/5.56 cases that I got from our local police. It was Remington, Federal and Lake City and all of it was lower grade brass sold to the police as cheap practice ammunition for their AR15 rifles.

On a impulse the last time I was at our local sporting goods store I bought a box of Nosler custom brass that had already been weight sorted, sized and fully prepped. The uniformity of this brass was amazing compared to my second hand bargain basement cases I got for free.

Once you get the the Sinclair runout gauge you will wonder how you ever got along with out it. And you will also understand WHY your groups are bigger. I use to blame drinking too much coffee and bad karma for my large groups, now I know what I was doing wrong.

Or you can forget the gauges and just volunteer to give covering suppressing fire for your buddies in Zombie attacks.

(Zombie neck runout humor)

Edited February 21, 2014 by bigedp51

[Number99]

My advice would be just keep reading and keep trying. There's a boatload of of things it could be. The first place I would start on your load would be powder charge. Play with it a little and see if it improves any. Check over on the high road forums. Almost all my questions were answered just by looking around over there. And here of course also. Your already a step ahead of me. I tried to learn reloading with a break open single shot. Bad idea!!!

[rjacobs]

IMO you cant just toss a load together and "hope" it works out to a sub MOA load.

You need to do an OCW load work up to try to find a node. That is where you will find most precision shooters start their load development.

Search for the OCW(optimized charge weight) web site that Dan Newberry has which has the how to and why of doing OCW to find your proper charge weight.

[ridenrunwv]

OCW is definitely what I would recommend for load development also but you're not going to shoot a 3 inch group because you're not shooting the optimal charge weight. Figure out where the inconsistency in your loads are coming from and then read about OCW test.

Don't adjust the die between loads trying to get exact same overall length each round if by some chance you were doing that. The part of the bullet that makes contact with the rifling isn't the tip of the bullet and that length is what needs to be consistent. Your overall lengths will tend to vary slightly from round to round.

Blemished bullets could hurt you depending what was wrong with them so I would take what you have learned researching your problem and try to put it to use with different bullets before worrying too much about it.

[rjacobs]

Also are you using all same headstamp brass? That would also lead to weird pressure curves and loss of accuracy.

That and a non optimized charge weight could be enough to produce 3" groups.

Ive shot 3 shot groups using different brass(same head stamp for each group) and had POI that was vertically dispersed by ~1" per head stamp at 100 yards. Do that with a non optimized charge weight(which I have seen produce 2" groups) at 100 yards and you have a recipe for 3" groups.

Lots of factors come into play when shooting precision and reloading techniques and load work up definitely take some time to get comfortable with.

Your PMC cheap stuff shoots ok because it is all same head stamp brass so pressures should be equal and your gun likes it. Nothing really magic about it though.

[gondo]

More inaccurate ammunition is reloaded than any other cause simply because the expander button is locked down off center inducing excessive neck runout.

If you want your reloads to have greater accuracy than factory ammunition then buy a good runout gauge and a case neck gauge.

SINCLAIR CONCENTRICITY GAUGE

http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloading-equipment/measuring-tools/concentricity-gauges/sinclair-concentricity-gauge-prod37479.aspx

Redding Case Neck Gage w/ Indicator

http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloading-equipment/measuring-tools/case-gauges-headspace-tools/redding-case-neck-gage-w-indicator-prod39927.aspx

You can't make a silk purse from a sows ear and you will not shoot tight groups with bad brass.

Bullet Run-Out:

http://www.gunnersden.com/index.htm.rifle-reloading-bullet-run-out.html

First you need cases with uniform neck and case wall thicknesses. (good brass and not seconds or rejects)

Then you need to check neck and bullet runout to make sure your sizing and seating operation isn't causing problems.

Much of the cheaper blasting ammo you see today are made from cartridge cases that failed quality inspection. Federal loaded the cases below after they failed Lake City Military quality control and not loaded as military ammunition.

I have three five gallon buckets of once fired .223/5.56 cases that I got from our local police. It was Remington, Federal and Lake City and all of it was lower grade brass sold to the police as cheap practice ammunition for their AR15 rifles.

On a impulse the last time I was at our local sporting goods store I bought a box of Nosler custom brass that had already been weight sorted, sized and fully prepped. The uniformity of this brass was amazing compared to my second hand bargain basement cases I got for free.

Once you get the the Sinclair runout gauge you will wonder how you ever got along with out it. And you will also understand WHY your groups are bigger. I use to blame drinking too much coffee and bad karma for my large groups, now I know what I was doing wrong.

Or you can forget the gauges and just volunteer to give covering suppressing fire for your buddies in Zombie attacks.

(Zombie neck runout humor)

I thought this was the military grade xm193 stuff??? If its not, then where do you get "military" grade xm193? I can get a touching clover leaf at 100 yards with an eotech and the ammo you pictured most of the time... i didnt think it could get much better and honestly i though it was because this was "good" ammo. I cant get this accuracy with a lot of other brands... enlighten me pls.

[mpeltier]

M193,M855 etc are military designations for specific loadings of 5.56 ammo they purchase. Each lot gets inspected and tested to ensure it meets military standards. If it does not it gets rejected and stamped XM193 etc and sold to us civilians. I have heard also that ocasionally over runs for commercial sales may also be marked this way as well for civilian sales. The rejects does not mean its bad ammo, just some detail did not meet the requirement.

To the op, I would recomend loading some quality 55gr to try in that bbl. I have not had a 1/8 twist bbl yet that liked 69gr noslers. Others might have but the ones I have had made a lot of 3" groups.

[gondo]

M193,M855 etc are military designations for specific loadings of 5.56 ammo they purchase. Each lot gets inspected and tested to ensure it meets military standards. If it does not it gets rejected and stamped XM193 etc and sold to us civilians. I have heard also that ocasionally over runs for commercial sales may also be marked this way as well for civilian sales. The rejects does not mean its bad ammo, just some detail did not meet the requirement.

To the op, I would recomend loading some quality 55gr to try in that bbl. I have not had a 1/8 twist bbl yet that liked 69gr noslers. Others might have but the ones I have had made a lot of 3" groups.

well hell i guess i would like to have some m193 for matches, because the xm193 has been great for me for the first couple thousand... not one malfunction and groups great...

[bigedp51]

The military is not allowed to sell its ammunition to the public, the "CASES" that Federal uses for its so called military ammunition are seconds and failed quality standards at Lake City. It still can be good brass and it meets civilian SAAMI standards but if failed military standards. It might not meet military hardness standards in the base, thickness standards, internal volume, etc.

Bottom line, Federal M193 isn't loaded at Lake City because the military and the Government will not sell new military ammunition to civilians. (surplus ammunition is another story)

And if you put your glasses on and look at the back of the box you will see the following.

Manufactured in the U.S.A.

Federal Cartridge Co.

Anoka, MN 55303 U.S.A

And the zip code for Lake City is 64057

Or did you think convoys of Army trucks took the loaded ammo from Lake City Missouri to Minnesota and gave it to Federal to sell.

I really don't see President Obama or Nancy Pelosi letting the Army do this, or did ATK contribute to their reelection campaigns.

Edited July 15, 2014 by bigedp51

[mpeltier]

ATK manufactures Ammo under contract at the Lake City facility. The Army may own the facility and their inspectors are there to inspect, but it ain't made by the army. ATK is a contractor. M193 that is not accepted by the Army is sold to civilians (XM193). We use a ton of it at work.

[dauntedfuture]

I

[dauntedfuture]

I might take a look at a few things. 1. Measure your twist rate, you should be fine with 69's in a 1-8, but I would verify that 1-8 is what it is. 2. not all blemished bullets are the same depending on who sells them so I would try some real sierra 69's and see what happens before you go much further. 3. Pull one of your 69s and check the base, you might be damaging the bullet base if you are not chamfering the cases or are under sizing the cases. 4. Make sure you check the parallax on your scope.

Back in the day 23.5g 748 and 69 sierras was a popular NRA HP load so I think its Scope, barrel or reloading process.

Try to load some 55 FMJs and see if they shoot close to the factory stuff.

What do your groups look like? All vertical can be high ES/SD, all horizontal could be wind but at 100 that's unlikely, two separate groups on target: what optics are you using, check parallax on your scope to make sure its correct. There is a possibility that the powders in the PMC ammo is not compatible with the 748, but that's unlikely. Provided everything is working and under ideal conditions, sorting brass will help with ES and SD. You don't need to weight ball powder. Concentricity will have some effect but unless you have gross run out its not a likely contributor. There are some other things and without barrel MFG etc we don't have a more to go on.

[bigedp51]

ATK manufactures Ammo under contract at the Lake City facility. The Army may own the facility and their inspectors are there to inspect, but it ain't made by the army. ATK is a contractor. M193 that is not accepted by the Army is sold to civilians (XM193). We use a ton of it at work.

Remington and then Winchester were contracted to make ammunition at Lake City and you didn't see either of them selling XM193 ammunition or using cartridge cases that failed quality inspection.

Federal is using cartridge cases that failed inspection and is manufacturing XM193 ammunition at their plant in Minnesota.

The military or the Government is not allowed to sell newly manufactured military ammunition to the civilian public. As I said read the back of the XM193 box it is not made at Lake City.

[mpeltier]

ATK manufactures Ammo under contract at the Lake City facility. The Army may own the facility and their inspectors are there to inspect, but it ain't made by the army. ATK is a contractor. M193 that is not accepted by the Army is sold to civilians (XM193). We use a ton of it at work.

Remington and then Winchester were contracted to make ammunition at Lake City and you didn't see either of them selling XM193 ammunition or using cartridge cases that failed quality inspection.

Federal is using cartridge cases that failed inspection and is manufacturing XM193 ammunition at their plant in Minnesota.

The military or the Government is not allowed to sell newly manufactured military ammunition to the civilian public. As I said read the back of the XM193 box it is not made at Lake City.

I never said the military or govt was selling their ammo.

Just because there's an address on the box, don't assume that's where it's actually manufactured.

Unless its changed recently, atk packages their lake city manufactured xm193 for civilian sales and sells it under the Federal brand name. Federal even had this at one time spelled out on their website.

[Dirtychemist]

Shot my first reloads and they stunk. 100yds,off a lead sled, 10 rounds and got a 3" group. 748 powder, 69gr sierra blims,Winchester primers, once fired brass,2.25 OAL. I get 1 1/2 group with PMC 55gr now. What do I need to do to tighten this up? Thanks

http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/ocw-instructions/4529817134

This. I would make 5 rounds for each weight personally. Higher number of shots gives you better data. Statistics doesn't lie.