What Bullet is everyone running in the AR ?

[Alaskapopo]

What velocity are you guys getting out of the 77's? In playing with JBM it looks like unless you are getting 2900 fps from them you are better with a 55 BT out to 400. Other than the longest shot at RM3G how often are you guys seeing targets past 350 anyway? Don't matter to me what people shoot, but the 55 ballistic tips and the 52 CC's sure do shoot well and flat in my guns.

I am getting 2550 to 2600 but accuracy is way better than 55's past 100 as is wind drive and power factor. I shot out to 500 in Texas last year at the Multigun Nationals. Did very well on the long range stage and that moved me up a few places in the finish. In Georgia where was a target at 400. So every match match I have been to has hat at least one target past 400 over the last 4 years. How do you figure you need 2900 fps from a 77? You don't.

Pat

Edited January 27, 2014 by Alaskapopo

[fizux]

For all targets under 100 yds, I use 52 gr bullets

For 100 to 200 yd targets I load 55 gr bullets

200 out to 300 I use 68gr and 300 to 400 I switch to 69gr SMKs

400 and out are 77gr.

It might seem like a lot of different loads and at time figuring out what order to put them in the mags can be a bit of a task but so far it has worked well.

I've also tried loading up mags with just one weight and then changing mags based on the target distance but found it was better just to plan the CoF and load one mag.

What is your tracer/ball mix ratio?

Oh, and you do realize that most of us are not behind corporate firewalls that block NSFW content, right?

[Gussers]

I've had great luck with Hornady 55gr and my friend has been using Midsouth's 55gr with great results (cheaper than Hornady). I have an order in for them now, FWIW. 25.5g H335 is fantastic.

Haven't played with anything heavier than 62gr so far.

[Nickoli]

55 FMJ @ 2300FPS inside 200 yards.

Much slower than I would have tried. What powder are you using?

Thanks.

Bill

This got me to thinking (a monumental task) and I wondered if I decreased my 55gr FMJ loads a bit, just how close can I get the trajectory to match my planned 77 gr loads. I'm using the JBM Ballistic program.

Compared Hornady 55gr FMJ/BT at 2900 fps to Nosler 77gr CC HPBT at 2750 fps.

With a 100 yard zero (I run a Burris MTAC) the drop in MOA are off by only 0.1 MOA at 200 yards between the two loads. I do not plan on shooting the FMJs past 200 yards but its interesting to notice that the drop between the two remain close all the way to 500 yards.

Have not been to the range to test this.

Interesting and useful stuff or am I overlooking something?

Bill

If you get this tested let us know the results. I also run a MTAC, and my 77s loads are at 2720 currently and 55s are 2860. I would like to be able to have a similar zero if possible, going for a 200 zero and seeing where is it with 55s and 77s at both 200 and 50.

[bobby hated]

Long Range - 69g SMK

Hoser - Cheapest 55g I can find

[Stlhead]

What velocity are you guys getting out of the 77's? In playing with JBM it looks like unless you are getting 2900 fps from them you are better with a 55 BT out to 400. Other than the longest shot at RM3G how often are you guys seeing targets past 350 anyway? Don't matter to me what people shoot, but the 55 ballistic tips and the 52 CC's sure do shoot well and flat in my guns.

I am getting 2550 to 2600 but accuracy is way better than 55's past 100 as is wind drive and power factor. I shot out to 500 in Texas last year at the Multigun Nationals. Did very well on the long range stage and that moved me up a few places in the finish. In Georgia where was a target at 400. So every match match I have been to has hat at least one target past 400 over the last 4 years. How do you figure you need 2900 fps from a 77? You don't.

Pat

To get an equivalent drop at 400 yards with a 77gr CC I need to push it past 2900 fps. The wind drift is a bit better with the 77's at that range but not enough to make it worth worrying about. As for the energy downrange, I just need enough to activate the target and 55's and 52's are doing that just fine. The only target I saw last year much past 400 was on JJ's long range stage at RM3G last year and it was around 500 if I remember, and the 55's I was shooting had no problems with it. That was the only target much past 400 that I recall in the past few years in 3 gun, I guess I need to go to more matches.

As a limited shooter, a flat trajectory and a minimum of drop is paramount to me. Your 77gr load has 42% more drop at 400 yards than my 55gr load. That is a significant amount. With your fancy calibrated reticle you can account for the drop better, but I still maintain that less drop leaves less room for error, and results in better first round hits on the targets that we regularly engage. If a target is well hit with a 55 and it does not score than there is a problem with the target that needs to be addressed, going to a larger round to make up for poor target selection and presentation on a stage is the wrong way to solve the problem. Would not a 338 LM be the best way to deal with a sticky target?

[Alaskapopo]

What velocity are you guys getting out of the 77's? In playing with JBM it looks like unless you are getting 2900 fps from them you are better with a 55 BT out to 400. Other than the longest shot at RM3G how often are you guys seeing targets past 350 anyway? Don't matter to me what people shoot, but the 55 ballistic tips and the 52 CC's sure do shoot well and flat in my guns.

I am getting 2550 to 2600 but accuracy is way better than 55's past 100 as is wind drive and power factor. I shot out to 500 in Texas last year at the Multigun Nationals. Did very well on the long range stage and that moved me up a few places in the finish. In Georgia where was a target at 400. So every match match I have been to has hat at least one target past 400 over the last 4 years. How do you figure you need 2900 fps from a 77? You don't.

Pat

To get an equivalent drop at 400 yards with a 77gr CC I need to push it past 2900 fps. The wind drift is a bit better with the 77's at that range but not enough to make it worth worrying about. As for the energy downrange, I just need enough to activate the target and 55's and 52's are doing that just fine. The only target I saw last year much past 400 was on JJ's long range stage at RM3G last year and it was around 500 if I remember, and the 55's I was shooting had no problems with it. That was the only target much past 400 that I recall in the past few years in 3 gun, I guess I need to go to more matches.

As a limited shooter, a flat trajectory and a minimum of drop is paramount to me. Your 77gr load has 42% more drop at 400 yards than my 55gr load. That is a significant amount. With your fancy calibrated reticle you can account for the drop better, but I still maintain that less drop leaves less room for error, and results in better first round hits on the targets that we regularly engage. If a target is well hit with a 55 and it does not score than there is a problem with the target that needs to be addressed, going to a larger round to make up for poor target selection and presentation on a stage is the wrong way to solve the problem. Would not a 338 LM be the best way to deal with a sticky target?

The wind drift is over 50% more with the lighter bullets. I notice it a lot when I have compared the two at 400 yards. As for trajectory just change your initial zero to match the marks. That said with my 77 grain load I have it zeroed at 200 yards and I just have to hold a few inches high at 300 on a 10 inch plate and the same at 400 yards (using the 300 and 400 yard marks in the Vortex scope) To each his own and if you found a good way with the lighter bullets that works for you more power to you. I have just found that I can hit more reliably at distance with the heavier pills. Also I can roll a MGM spinner at 100 yards in 15 rounds of 77 grain bullets but I have not yet rolled it at all with 55 grain bullets. As a shooter you have no say in the targets the match director uses. Personally I like Larue targets because they go down and they present more of a challenge because they do require more power than other targets. That adds another dimension to the game like the MGM spinner does.

Pat

Edited January 29, 2014 by Alaskapopo

[GM2B]

55 FMJ @ 2300FPS inside 200 yards.

Much slower than I would have tried. What powder are you using?

Thanks.

Bill

I used BLC-2 around 23 grains. I run the 55 fmjs slow not to match with my 77's but instead to make quick doubles spot on target. My gas block is adjusted to them and the recoil is almost that of a .22lr where as when I shoot the 77smks @2600fps I am overgassed and it does recoil alot in comparison but I also typically make my shots one for one past 200 and dont need to worry about a bit of muzzle jump. This works well for me and you will agree if you watch me run long range. It may not be a great idea for everyone...

Edited January 29, 2014 by GM2B

[GM2B]

I call the slow 55FMJ's my hoser loads!

[Stlhead]

It absolutely does not require 77's to spin a spinner. I have two of them and shoot them ALL the time. At 100 yards with 55 or even 52's six or seven solid hits and it's over. The wind drift at 400 for the 55's is 2" more with 10mph full value. I can tell that no matter what I post, you will still stick to those 77's, that's cool, if you think that they are better and that gives you confidence you will do better with them. I even have a 1000 of them to play with for a bolt gun, I don't think that they are the devil. It is just my belief that they do not offer any significant value to a 3 gun shooter that would overcome the hassle of trying to manage multiple ammo ammo supplies and zeros. While I may be willing to spend some of my time discussing this in hopes of gaining more insight, it makes no difference what anybody shoots to me and I wish everyone well with whatever ammo they choose to expend.

[Flatland Shooter]

55 FMJ @ 2300FPS inside 200 yards.

Much slower than I would have tried. What powder are you using?

Thanks.

Bill

I used BLC-2 around 23 grains. I run the 55 fmjs slow not to match with my 77's but instead to make quick doubles spot on target. My gas block is adjusted to them and the recoil is almost that of a .22lr where as when I shoot the 77smks @2600fps I am overgassed and it does recoil alot in comparison but I also typically make my shots one for one past 200 and dont need to worry about a bit of muzzle jump. This works well for me and you will agree if you watch me run long range. It may not be a great idea for everyone...

I took a look at Hornady's online reloading data. The lowest charge recommended was 23.4 gr (2888 fps) with a Barnes 55gr bullet. By dropping the velocity 588 fps with only a 0.4 gr reduction in powder I start to get concerned with things happening that I do not understand. Other than requiring adjustment on the gas block, are you having any problems with this load?

I would like to get a super low recoiling load for those "hoser" shots.

[GM2B]

I will have to go home and verify my charge with the BLC2 with the 55FMJ. I havent had any problems but I do clean my firearm ever 200 rounds and keep it soaked in oil. I have done nothing except turn the gas up just enough to run that slow bullet. I run the JP lightened bcg and buffer with a jp gas block. It really does help with getting to alphas blazing fast.

Could it be causing unnecesary wear to my barrel? I doubt it I have always known high velocities to cause throat errosion. I dont know... It still shoots sub MOA out to 500 yards and if it goes bad I will buy another barrel! They are meant to be replaced!

[Therealkoop]

It absolutely does not require 77's to spin a spinner. I have two of them and shoot them ALL the time. At 100 yards with 55 or even 52's six or seven solid hits and it's over. The wind drift at 400 for the 55's is 2" more with 10mph full value. I can tell that no matter what I post, you will still stick to those 77's, that's cool, if you think that they are better and that gives you confidence you will do better with them. I even have a 1000 of them to play with for a bolt gun, I don't think that they are the devil. It is just my belief that they do not offer any significant value to a 3 gun shooter that would overcome the hassle of trying to manage multiple ammo ammo supplies and zeros. While I may be willing to spend some of my time discussing this in hopes of gaining more insight, it makes no difference what anybody shoots to me and I wish everyone well with whatever ammo they choose to expend.

Really? The only reason I care to use heavy projectiles is because of wind drift. At 400 with a 2600fps heavy and a 3000fps light projectile, I always calculate at least 7" of more drift (10 mph).

[GPRifle]

My JPs love Berger 73gr BTs.

[GM2B]

The 77smks buck the wind about 25% less wind drift than 55FMJs. Use what works. If you get SUB MOA groups with your 55FMJ's out to 500 then shoot them as long as its not super windy! I run my 77's because they are sub moa in my gun and they buck the wind. I load out my magazines accordingly in stage planning. http://jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi

55FMJ at 3000FPS at 500 yards 41 inches windage with 10mph wind at 400 yards its 24 inches windage

77SMK at 2600 FPS at 500 yards 32.2 inches windage with 10 mph wind at 400 yards its 19 inches windage

For me the less wind I have to hold quick and in a hurry the better!

Edited January 29, 2014 by GM2B

[Stlhead]

Conditions:

75 degrees

30% humidity

2500' elevation

Range 400 yards

200 yard zero

10 mph wind

Litz BC values

Nosler 55 BT @ 3020fps 23.3"drop 19.7" wind drift

Nosler 55 BT @ 3210fps 21.1" drop 17.9" wind drift

SMK 69 @ 2780fps 24.8" drop 16.2 wind drift

Nosler 69 CC @2780 fps 26.2" drop 18.7" wind drift (Note that a Litz BC value is not available for this bullet and it is nearly identical to the SMK 69)

Nosler 77 CC @ 2550fps 28.6" drop 15.8" wind drift

Nosler 77 CC @ 2600fps 27.4" drop 15.4" wind drift

SMK 77 @2600 fps 27.5" drop 15.6" wind drift

Berger 75VLD @ 2600fps 26.2" drop 13.4" wind drift

Berger 105 VLD@3220fps15.1"drop 7.5" wind drift 6mm bolt gun for comparison

Go to JBM and plug the numbers in yourself, change the atmospheric conditions to anything that suits your local shooting conditions or mood and share your results. Crank up the velocity, or slow it down. My point is that the differences in wind drift and drop are not that great at 400 and 400 yard shots are a VERY small part of our game. The vast majority of our game is played at less than 200 yards where all of this becomes nothing more than a trivial argument of 10ths of inches. Again I am not trying to get anyone to do anything different than what they are doing now, I don't care what anyone shoots, but I don't want people to think that they HAVE to shoot some heavy for caliber high BC bullet to play 3 gun. Matches are won and lost by the shooter, not the bullet. As long s the ammo functions and is consistent it will not be a drag on a 3gun shooter. I am not sure why I get involved in this same discussion every few months or years, I should know better by now.

[00MGN]

Widener's mil spec 75gr bthp @ 2699fps for all close and far targets. Like other posters stated I would get confused to easily, plus at 6'2" 240lbs I don't notice to much recoil. Also, I have been burned by not getting a call on the R&R flashers and have had heavy Rio plate racks take a few hits to fall when I used 55gr bullets.

[Bryan 45]

I'm glad I've spent more time shooting from field positions with the one and only load I use than testing multiple bullet weights w/ different powder charges at different distances with different environmental conditions.

Sorry guys, had to jump back in there!

[Alaskapopo]

I own a spinner as well and I admit I have only tried to spin it on a few different days with the rifle. I mostly use it for pistol and shotgun stages. That said I was able to spin it in 15 rounds with 77 grain reloads and was not able to spin it at all with 55 grain loads. Not saying it can't be done as I know I am not a pro. My point is the 77 grain bullets make it easier to spin. When I did the match on BC calculation I noticed that my 77 grainers had about 50% less wind drift than my 52 grain match load at 500 yards. On actual targets on the range its noticeable to me as well. The main reason I prefer the heavies is accuracy. I have my 77 grain load down to .75 moa (average of 5 5shot groups not just a fluke group) My light bullets are not as accurate. Not bad but not as good. If your rifle likes the light bullets and that system works better for you then use it. For me I just a 100 yard zero with 55 grain ball reloads and I shoot that ammo out to 100 to 200 yards depending on the targets. If its past 200 or if its pesky poppers at 200 then I use my 77 grain loads and a 200 yard zero. It works well for me. Do what works for you. Take care. By the way I realize that long range targets are a small part of the game. I generally only bring 100 rounds of my heavies to a major match and I only shoot about half of them or less. Mostly I shoot my ball load.

Pat

Edited January 30, 2014 by Alaskapopo

[jjw]

Does anyone run the 75gr? I've had good accuracy out of them but have had trouble finding any in loaded ammo. Also, had anyone tried xtreme's 55 grain fmj? They seem reasonable price wise

sorry wrong question

jjw

Edited February 2, 2014 by jjw

[A6Gator]

1:8 18" JP does 55gr whatever very well out to 200yds. I experimented with Prvi Match 69gr and Hornady Steel Match 75gr. Prvi did well at 200-300, with 4-5" groups. However, the Hornady stuff I could cover with a watch at 300. They were like laser bullets.