9mm Gage Check Fail: More Crimp or More Resize? XL650

[HollywoodShooter]

So I'm reloading my first 9mm on a Dillon XL650, using range pick-up brass and X-treme 115g RN

After getting my tool head set-up with Dillon dies, following the Dillon directions carefully, I thought I was in pretty good shape, with a nice (minimal) bell, a nice (minimal) taper crimp (I went too far at first, and then backed it off until I didn't see any scratches in the copper plating on a pulled bullet), and a moderate OAL of 1.14

Now after working up some test loads, some of the rounds (about 30%) fail to drop free of the Dillon 9mm case gage on their own. They do however have no problem falling out of my SIG barrel that I'll be shooting with.

The brass are a mix of headstamps....including WIN, PMC, FC, GFL, & BLAZER....but I definitely seem to have more problems with the FC.

I measured some factory Federal 9mm 115g FMJ for comparison, and of course as expected the factory loads drop cleanly out of the gage.

Looking at some factory Federal FMJ 115g, I get:
.3755 @ the mouth
.3825 @ 1/2 way down the case
.3885 @ the base just above the rim

on a 2nd factory Federal FMJ 115g:
.3760 @ the mouth
.3800 @ 1/2 way down the case
.3870 @ the base just above the rim


On my reloads that didn't drop free I got:
.3775 @ the mouth
.3725 @ 1/2 way down the case
.3855 @ the base just above the rim

-and-

.3800 @ the mouth
.3730 @ 1/2 way down the case
.3855 @ the base just above the rim

So what does that mean? I have some 'coke bottle' shaped brass? Perhaps inconsistant diameters on the 115g bullets?

Would you:
A: Increase the Resize die ?

B: Increase the Taper Crimp die ?

C: Call it good since they seem fine in the barrel ?

Thanks for your response!

[Service Desk]

Mixed brass is half your problem, some is thicker and some is thinner..... And some has probably been Glocked. I take the sizing down until it won't turn any further and then back it off an eight turn. That gives about 6 thousands clearance between the shell plate and the face of the sizing die. I crimp to .378" on Winchester cases and there is no noticeable deformation of the jacket. If I crimp tighter on Federal or Remington they get sticky in the Dillon case gage. As long as the tight ones are OK in your barrel you have little to be worried about.

[rooster]

Try getting an evolution gun works u die. Set it up the same way service desk in the previous post suggests. I usually allow the rim thickness to sit above the gauge as I know that will fit my barrel, any more than that it gets pulled. If it fits your barrel you are good to go the gauge is only a reference. If I am going to a match that I want no chance of failure then they must all fit the gauge and drop freely.

[razorfish]

Sounds like you need to crank the sizing die down some more. Follow the comment (by Service Desk) above carefully.

You should have no issues with the 9mm Dillon dies and mixed range pickup brass... I've successfully loaded more than 50K of mixed brass 9mm with Dillon Dies. The EGW U-die is fine, but in my opinion really not needed.

The Coke bottle shape is completely normal, in fact if they're NOT coke bottle shaped you're doing something wrong.

[grapemeister]

The barrel, for the most part, is what I go by, not a case gauge. Even though you're having no problems when checking your loaded rounds against the chamber of your barrel, rounds not case gauging consistently may be a cause for concern. Have you checked for bullet set back before you crimp? If your getting quite a bit of setback before the crimp, you may need to adjust your sizing die, and in turn that may allow more consistent case gauging. No crimp or very little crimp could also be the cause of the round not case gauging.

Edited January 5, 2014 by grapemeister

[sroe3]

"C" without a doubt. The barrel is the ultimate gauge. I can tell by my gauge which of my guns a round will chamber in. Snug fit and any gun I have will chamber it. Rim slightly exposed means FN only. Rim entirely exposed needs to be rechecked with the gun but will usually chamber. I have a SDB so U-dies are out of the question for me and I've learned to manage my bulged brass.

[Steve RA]

Your chamber is the ultimate gauge, if it fits in chamber (Plunk Test) feeds and loads 100% that is all you need. Every chamber is slightly different from all the rest so you are only worried about yours. (commercial ammo loaders dance to a different tune)

[Sarge]

First easy thing to try is clean the lube off the loaded rounds and wipe out the gauge

[HollywoodShooter]

The barrel, for the most part, is what I go by, not a case gauge. Even though you're having no problems when checking your loaded rounds against the chamber of your barrel, rounds not case gauging consistently may be a cause for concern. Have you checked for bullet set back before you crimp? If your getting quite a bit of setback before the crimp, you may need to adjust your sizing die, and in turn that may allow more consistent case gauging. No crimp or very little crimp could also be the cause of the round not case gauging.

There's nothing consistent about the cases not gageing. Other rounds with the same headstamp drop free of the gage without issue.

Yes, I checked for set-back before (and after) the taper crimp (solid knocks on hardwood) and found no discernable difference in OAL.

I've now checked the non-gageing rounds in all 3 of my 9mm barrels (X5 Competition, p226, and p239) and they drop free without issue.

[HollywoodShooter]

First easy thing to try is clean the lube off the loaded rounds and wipe out the gauge

Ummm....I'm not lubing my straight wall cases (with carbide dies), and the brand new gage seems pretty clean, but I'll swab it out anyway.

[Sarge]

First easy thing to try is clean the lube off the loaded rounds and wipe out the gauge

Ummm....I'm not lubing my straight wall cases (with carbide dies), and the brand new gage seems pretty clean, but I'll swab it out anyway.

In that case try lubing the cases with some good lube (OneShot) and see if it helps. You might be scrunching the brass down without lube. I think you will find that the typical user of carbide dies still uses lube. Makes the press easily 30%+easier to operate and produces better results.

[HollywoodShooter]

First easy thing to try is clean the lube off the loaded rounds and wipe out the gauge

Ummm....I'm not lubing my straight wall cases (with carbide dies), and the brand new gage seems pretty clean, but I'll swab it out anyway.

In that case try lubing the cases with some good lube (OneShot) and see if it helps. You might be scrunching the brass down without lube. I think you will find that the typical user of carbide dies still uses lube. Makes the press easily 30%+easier to operate and produces better results.

How much difference is there between OneShot and Dillon Case Lube? I did get some DCL with my press (for when I start doing rifle), and will give it a try with the lube on my next run.

Meanwhile, I've worked up 20 loads each with Titegroup with an OAL of 1.14 @ 3.4g, 3.6g, 3.9g, and 4.1g

I'm off to the range to see what's doing what. If for some reason you all never hear from me again....well....

[Sarge]

First easy thing to try is clean the lube off the loaded rounds and wipe out the gauge

Ummm....I'm not lubing my straight wall cases (with carbide dies), and the brand new gage seems pretty clean, but I'll swab it out anyway.

In that case try lubing the cases with some good lube (OneShot) and see if it helps. You might be scrunching the brass down without lube. I think you will find that the typical user of carbide dies still uses lube. Makes the press easily 30%+easier to operate and produces better results.

How much difference is there between OneShot and Dillon Case Lube? I did get some DCL with my press (for when I start doing rifle), and will give it a try with the lube on my next run.

Meanwhile, I've worked up 20 loads each with Titegroup with an OAL of 1.14 @ 3.4g, 3.6g, 3.9g, and 4.1g

I'm off to the range to see what's doing what. If for some reason you all never hear from me again....well....

WAIT! Leave your address first so we can find your powder and primers!

[Shadyscott999]

I agree on the One Shot. Whoever started calling crimp, crimp should have his head smashed. You crimp should be case wall thickness (2)+bullet size. Crimp should not hold the bullet. Only remove the bell.

[grapemeister]

The barrel, for the most part, is what I go by, not a case gauge. Even though you're having no problems when checking your loaded rounds against the chamber of your barrel, rounds not case gauging consistently may be a cause for concern. Have you checked for bullet set back before you crimp? If your getting quite a bit of setback before the crimp, you may need to adjust your sizing die, and in turn that may allow more consistent case gauging. No crimp or very little crimp could also be the cause of the round not case gauging.

There's nothing consistent about the cases not gageing. Other rounds with the same headstamp drop free of the gage without issue.

Yes, I checked for set-back before (and after) the taper crimp (solid knocks on hardwood) and found no discernable difference in OAL.

I've now checked the non-gageing rounds in all 3 of my 9mm barrels (X5 Competition, p226, and p239) and they drop free without issue.

I still have my concerns and/or curiosities but my guess is that you're probably good to go. Let us know how it all worked out, if you're able.

[HollywoodShooter]

First easy thing to try is clean the lube off the loaded rounds and wipe out the gauge

Ummm....I'm not lubing my straight wall cases (with carbide dies), and the brand new gage seems pretty clean, but I'll swab it out anyway.

In that case try lubing the cases with some good lube (OneShot) and see if it helps. You might be scrunching the brass down without lube. I think you will find that the typical user of carbide dies still uses lube. Makes the press easily 30%+easier to operate and produces better results.

How much difference is there between OneShot and Dillon Case Lube? I did get some DCL with my press (for when I start doing rifle), and will give it a try with the lube on my next run.

Meanwhile, I've worked up 20 loads each with Titegroup with an OAL of 1.14 @ 3.4g, 3.6g, 3.9g, and 4.1g

I'm off to the range to see what's doing what. If for some reason you all never hear from me again....well....

WAIT! Leave your address first so we can find your powder and primers!

I'm back, and I survived.....and still have the same number of eyes, fingers, and toes that I went in with, so all good in that regard. There is definitely some satisfaction to be had firing your first reloads!

.....and (almost) everything ran nearly without issue. I don't think the problems I had were related to the cases, because nothing got stuck in the chamber,

-BUT - I did have some stove pipes with the lightest loads.

I took 20 rounds each (using Titegroup) @ 3.4g, 3.6g, 3.9g, and 4.1g

I had one ragged hole with my first 5 rounds @ 3.4g....but then my 2nd string with that load had the few stove pipes.

The 3.6g and 3.9g loads had no feed/eject issues, the groups were pretty consistent, with anything outside the group surely being shooter error.

The 4.1g loads were my best of the session in terms of tight grouping, but definitely had a bit more recoil.

I'll be shooting steel in competition, so I wonder if I can get away with the 3.6g or will I need the hotter load? Obviously I don't have a chrono.

I'm now terribly conflicted....

[grapemeister]

I'm not familiar with Sig springs, but it sounds like unless you go with a lighter recoil spring you are stuck with the 4.1 grain load for reliability. Many steel challenge shooters like going with a light subsonic load which is usualy accomplished by going with lighter springs.

It sounds like you're getting down the basics of reloading and I'm happy for you. I still remember the joy of firing my 1st reloads. Cool stuff. Best of luck to you.

Edit: Get a chrono as soon as possible, I got my Prochrono at an online archery store for about 90 bucks. Nothing fancy, but very reliable. The chrono will teach you so much, and give you so much feed back. Takes a lot of guess work out.

Edited January 6, 2014 by grapemeister

[sroe3]

First, get a chrono. It's a safety thing. Second, for Steel Challenge use the lightest load that's accurate and cycles your gun. No need for more.

Edited January 7, 2014 by sroe3