Noob Advice for a New Gun

[kneelingatlas]

You're such a pusher CD! I can appreciate a man not spending money he doesn't have.

There will come a time...

[johnhhuber]

I really enjoy shooting my M&P 9mm. Plus if shoot production with it, you are not penalized for shooting minor. If you are just getting into the sport, I would save money on gear and ammo and spend it on practice and instruction. Then, once you are out of school and money is not as big an issue, you can graduate to your dream gun and will have the skills to back it up.

[charliedelta]

IK. Sorry. I just wish I had known about the possibility of going this route before I bought my Shadow from the CZ custom shop. Could have saved a few coins. I also waited a couple of years to save up the money when I could have been shooting it the whole time.

[itlogo]

Just reiterating what's already been said here--I would consider something more mainstream like Glock, S&W, Springfield, CZ, etc. The convenience of shooting what you have is good to get you started, but you'll soon want to start changing out parts, and that's when it'll become apparent that less popular guns like Ruger are ill-suited for competition. The other aspect is resale value for your investment. If you intend to stick with the sport, you'll probably end up moving between divisions and trading equipment. If you spend a lot of money upgrading a gun (and you will) which few will want to trade, it's going to make it that much harder (more expensive) to swap your gear. Speaking of moving between divisions, most everyone I've seen do it usually have dedicated guns for it. If you're considering shooting Production now and maybe Limited later, expect that you'll not want to reuse your current 9mm for that.

[Gooldylocks]

itlogo:

Just reiterating what's already been said here--I would consider something more mainstream like Glock, S&W, Springfield, CZ, etc. The convenience of shooting what you have is good to get you started, but you'll soon want to start changing out parts, and that's when it'll become apparent that less popular guns like Ruger are ill-suited for competition. The other aspect is resale value for your investment. If you intend to stick with the sport, you'll probably end up moving between divisions and trading equipment. If you spend a lot of money upgrading a gun (and you will) which few will want to trade, it's going to make it that much harder (more expensive) to swap your gear. Speaking of moving between divisions, most everyone I've seen do it usually have dedicated guns for it. If you're considering shooting Production now and maybe Limited later, expect that you'll not want to reuse your current 9mm for that.

I see. That makes a lot of sense actually, about keeping different guns for different divisions. I have always thought that for something like IDPA I would just shoot my carry gun from my carry setup and just treat it as practice, but that USPSA would be about the game and shooting to win. Yet again, I wish Ruger would come out with a long slide version (5") that didn't have the magazine disconnect (a lot of people gripe about the loaded chamber indicator, but I don't really understand why) and had some better sights. The trigger is the bomb as it is, and then the aftermarket companies might start putting some money towards the platform.

CharlieDelta: I really do think that is a good plan, I didn't realize they could be had for that cheap. When I searched Gunbroker they were all well north of 600. The only CZ I have laid my hands on I thought felt fantastic, and was a serious shooter. I would love to own one that's for sure. Can they be shot 9mm major? I don't know anything about it really, other than if you make mistakes loading it its serious bad news. I know my SR9c can shoot +P+, would that be about what a major load would be?

johnhhuber: I really want to shoot one of these M&P's, everyone seems to really love them. Then I could build one of these: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=109749

[Smitty79]

The only division you can shoot 9mm major is open.

[kneelingatlas]

Most commercially available 9mm ammo is in the 120-130PF range, +P and +P+ is a little hotter with a few brands up around 150PF, but with a minimum PF of 165 most Open shooters run their 9Major loads in the 170-180PF range. Any gun subject to that abuse will wear out parts, the only question is "how long?"

[Gooldylocks]

OH I didn't realize you couldn't shoot 9 major in Limited. Well that answers that question really fast! Hey thanks again guys for all the help.

Side note: I didn't realize that factory +P+ was still only like 150ish PF. That is seriously eye opening about what a 9 major gun must feel like to shoot

[Sarge]

OH I didn't realize you couldn't shoot 9 major in Limited. Well that answers that question really fast! Hey thanks again guys for all the help.

Side note: I didn't realize that factory +P+ was still only like 150ish PF. That is seriously eye opening about what a 9 major gun must feel like to shoot

From the rule book:

APPENDIX D2 — Limited Division Minimum bullet caliber for Major .40 cal. / 10mm (0.40”)

AND FYI- You don't fool with 9MAJOR unless you are running a compensator.

[BSeevers]

Now do you have a goal of performance? Say A class by Nov 2014? By the way thats lofty, but very very achievable for a guy 2 matches in.

You need a gun that works every time, great sights and trigger. THEN practice. Spend money on ammo not guns.

You might see the local big dog shooting a STI $3500 gun and think thats why he wins. Uh no. Take up golf instead of USPSA tomorrow and buy the latest $3500 set of clubs. You know Phil Mickelson will still trouce you and he would do it with a set of rental clubs too.

But, He would have trouble with clubs with loose heads, see above comment about gun must work.

Now I don't think I would shoot a Ruger for very long, nobody that is good shoots one and that is enough evidence for me. Its not innovative to shoot one.

I think if you felt a pistol smithed trigger on a XD or CZ you might freak out. They come close to my 1911 that is 1/7/8 lb with almost no travel.

I would consider buying used since there are so many people eager to buy their way to a win with the latest gun purchase

I would recommend that a new shooter with limited coordination shoot Limited in 9mm because of so many issues going on and I know that adding reloading with every movement is difficult for said un skilled shooter.

For a guy middle of the pack in first month?? reload buddy since you are gonna need the practice or you are gonna get trounced since you will more than likely class higher

[Gooldylocks]

I think if you felt a pistol smithed trigger on a XD or CZ you might freak out. They come close to my 1911 that is 1/7/8 lb with almost no travel.

Hahaha I probably would, the closest thing to a custom gun I have ever shot is a Kimber Custom II...

Now do you have a goal of performance? Say A class by Nov 2014? By the way thats lofty, but very very achievable for a guy 2 matches in.

My goal that I made right after shooting my first match and seeing a couple of M's shoot was to be able to shoot like that. I told myself I would be a Master Limited shooter. I didn't have any kind of time frame along with that though, I just know that is my eventual goal. A closer range goal would probably be a solid to upper B by next year?

I would consider buying used since there are so many people eager to buy their way to a win with the latest gun purchase

I had considered doing that, I am a mountain biker and there are lots of people that just HAVE TO have next year's frame or fork or whatever, and they sell their one season old gear at crazy low prices. Where would be a good place to look? On this forum, gunbroker, after matches...?

I would recommend that a new shooter with limited coordination shoot Limited in 9mm because of so many issues going on and I know that adding reloading with every movement is difficult for said un skilled shooter.

For a guy middle of the pack in first month?? reload buddy since you are gonna need the practice or you are gonna get trounced since you will more than likely class higher

I hadn't really thought about that before, thank you. When I do my dry fire drills (I use the Predator Tactical online stuff for draws and reloads) I can consistently get my reloads in a par time of about .9 of a second but when I am in matches I am way slower. Is there anything that you guys do to bring up the stress level of your dry fire? Or is the real skill to bring down your stress level during match fire?

[kneelingatlas]

Or is the real skill to bring down your stress level during match fire?

[BSeevers]

I think if you felt a pistol smithed trigger on a XD or CZ you might freak out. They come close to my 1911 that is 1/7/8 lb with almost no travel.

Hahaha I probably would, the closest thing to a custom gun I have ever shot is a Kimber Custom II...

Now do you have a goal of performance? Say A class by Nov 2014? By the way thats lofty, but very very achievable for a guy 2 matches in.

My goal that I made right after shooting my first match and seeing a couple of M's shoot was to be able to shoot like that. I told myself I would be a Master Limited shooter. I didn't have any kind of time frame along with that though, I just know that is my eventual goal. A closer range goal would probably be a solid to upper B by next year?

I would consider buying used since there are so many people eager to buy their way to a win with the latest gun purchase

I had considered doing that, I am a mountain biker and there are lots of people that just HAVE TO have next year's frame or fork or whatever, and they sell their one season old gear at crazy low prices. Where would be a good place to look? On this forum, gunbroker, after matches...?

I would recommend that a new shooter with limited coordination shoot Limited in 9mm because of so many issues going on and I know that adding reloading with every movement is difficult for said un skilled shooter.

For a guy middle of the pack in first month?? reload buddy since you are gonna need the practice or you are gonna get trounced since you will more than likely class higher

I hadn't really thought about that before, thank you. When I do my dry fire drills (I use the Predator Tactical online stuff for draws and reloads) I can consistently get my reloads in a par time of about .9 of a second but when I am in matches I am way slower. Is there anything that you guys do to bring up the stress level of your dry fire? Or is the real skill to bring down your stress level during match fire?

I don't know how to fancy answer each question

Kimber? That ain't custom Sorry Kimber-ites

B A or GM Don't limit yourself but don't forget it takes a certain amount of time, money and effort for each, No time frame? That is not a goal then.

This forum has great deals and is by far the best place. Don't buy another guys mistake.

Stress? I could go on for 1000 words but you should strive for no stress. Relax

Dry fire is practice, you need live fire too

[Gooldylocks]

Thanks Bill! I will look around on here for a gun. How do you know what "someone else's mistake" is without shooting it? Or potentially owning it for awhile and finding its flaws down the road? Are most people gonna let you shoot it before you put some money down?

Sorry for so many questions, I am just trying to figure out what it is gonna take to get into this sport in a competitive way.

I see what you mean about the classification. I hadn't really looked at it that way before. Without a timeline it all just becomes talk. Solid to upper B by November '14. That is my goal as of right now. Thank you for showing me the difference.

[JeffWard]

Stick with your Ruger, in Production, and run 5 mags... 11, 10, 10, 10, and 10. Learn now to reload while moving, then 9-12 months in save up for a 5"+ Production gun. I'm an M&P fan, but I've shot XDs and Glocks too. Transitioning from your Ruger to the M<&P will be easies, as you can adjust the grip size, and the grip angle will be the same. It should point more naturally for you. Less frustration. The Glock has a very flat grip angle. Some people don't care, and can go back and forth to other guns. I can't Glocks just point "strange" for me, since the vast majority of my trigger time was on XDs, and is now all M&P.

I don't know a single A-Class shooter or above that shoots a Ruger. They are great sturdy guns, but they won't be "tweakable" to optimize them for the sport.

Either way, you'll need 5 mags, and 4-5 mag pouches, a shooting belt, and a good kydex holster. If yoiu have the money now... pick a platform and go that way.

Enjoy!

JW

[JeffWard]

Or is the real skill to bring down your stress level during match fire?

TIME... Repetitions... Practice... Experience.

[Gooldylocks]

I was thinking if I went to one of the 5" guns it probably would end up being a M&P because the grip angle is the same (they even use the same magazines as the Ruger, go figure) and because, well, they look better than XD's or Glock. I have shot a lot of Glocks and I shoot them decently well, but it just feels.... weird. I don't know how to describe it. Just weird. And the only XD I have ever shot I couldn't hit anything with at all. So that one is kinda out.

Looks like I should get a couple more magazines, but it is hard to justify dropping so much money on mags when I am gonna sell it and they are probably not gonna up the resale value a ton. What to do, what to do....

Or is the real skill to bring down your stress level during match fire?

TIME... Repetitions... Practice... Experience.

I hope I can get there. I was told to look at getting the With Winning In Mind book, and maybe I will learn something to that effect!

[Mpie427]

I use a stock Glock 17 then sometimes switch to a Single Stack .45 in a IDPA match for fun. Get good with the stock stuff.

[BSeevers]

Thanks Bill! I will look around on here for a gun. How do you know what "someone else's mistake" is without shooting it? Or potentially owning it for awhile and finding its flaws down the road? Are most people gonna let you shoot it before you put some money down?

Sorry for so many questions, I am just trying to figure out what it is gonna take to get into this sport in a competitive way.

I see what you mean about the classification. I hadn't really looked at it that way before. Without a timeline it all just becomes talk. Solid to upper B by November '14. That is my goal as of right now. Thank you for showing me the difference.

Yes you never know, Buyer beware but I only would buy stuff made by someone who knows what he is doing. Buying a Production M&P is a usually a lot easier than a 9mm major Open gun. Anything can be fixed but a $100 parts on a Glock is easier to stomach than a $1000 and 3 month wait on a Open gun after you just paid 3K for it

Ask away but I believe that reading through posts can advance you a class. You do sometimes need a filter because its free advice so you get your moneys worth sometimes and we are all equal on here, but not on the range if that made sense That said you don't have to be able to do a 4 sec El Prez to coach someone how to do one.

Keep that attitude, it's a champion's one

Edited December 27, 2013 by BSeevers

[45dotACP]

Here's my suggestion...and it's a doozy. I'd get a police trade in or 2nd gen Glock. Scour the gun shows for them, but they can be had for ridiculous prices and I'd take the time to look for one if you're on a budget. Learn what you can about their strengths (It's a ridiculously reliable, and quite accurate gun) and weaknesses (you need to handload carefully for the .40 caliber ones because they sometimes disassemble themselves quite quickly if you double charge a case), and I'd set up to load for .40 minor if you shoot production (or just use normal .40 and play in limited).

If you feel like you want to upgrade, then you may certainly have it sent to a good smith to have it built up into whatever you want (except a revo...unfortunately you actually need a revo, but glocks can be anything from production to open).

Heck, the frames for the glock 22 is the same as for the glock 17 and all the long slide glocks use the 17/22 frame. If you sold the Ruger, you could pick up a top end for a 17, plus a trigger bar/extractor unit and you'd have two different calibers for all of your production/limited desires. Especially if you buy a long slide top end. Really, if you're looking for a gun with the widest selection of spare parts, unless you're planning to single stack it up with a Kimber (pardon me while I laugh...sorry Kimber folks), the Glock is the obvious choice for aftermarket stuff outside of a 1911.

Also, I'm a glock fanboi and will unashamedly push the plastic Austrian stuff onto the newbs

Edited December 28, 2013 by 45dotACP

[Gooldylocks]

Shooting single stack actually seems like it would be super fun to me, but I don't own a 1911 (the Kimber was a friend's). I have shot a lot of Glocks, but they just feel funny to me. I don't know what it is about them. They just feel so boxy and uncomfortable. I shoot them okay (it seems like most people can pick up a Glock and do decent with it), but just not as well as some other things available. I would be willing to give a 34 or 17 a try though, as I have never shot either of those before (19's, 22's, 23's, etc but never a 17).

I am gonna convince my buddy to loan me his 34 Production gun to take to the range and test out. Maybe then I will have some better idea of if I like them.

[Mpie427]

I agree on the glock, when I first started I used a SIG X-5 tactical...It is a awesome gun, but finicky when it came to my reloads and primers used, plus ridiculously hard to find gear (holsters etc.). So I transitioned to a glock getting ready for the Glock GSSF match in Dallas and the thing eats all my reloads, parts are everywhere and they work - period. They feel and look dinky, but the natural "point of aim" makes them work. I have the G17 gen 4 and have switched out to the Sevigny sights and lighter springs to keep if feeling stock but a little smoother trigger.

Now, for the 1911. I use a Colt Special Combat in competitions because it works and is a awesome gun to shoot, that and I love Colts....So you just need to get a good 5" inch 1911 that works for you and lots of good magazines. Good luck and have fun.

[45dotACP]

There are certainly other options for you if you feel that Glock isn't really your speed. If polymer is your thing, I'd suggest you take a look at the M&P series by Smith, but I'd certainly recommend something from a good name. I've seen several good shooters do quite well with Beretta 92's, CZ-75's and Tanfo's. If you are more comfortable shooting a gun, you are likely to shoot it more and get better shooting it.

Probably the only reason I shoot glocks so damn much is because I picked one up and it just made sense. I was told the grip was odd, but honestly, I didn't notice when I was actually shooting it. Now that I've got a little time behind my 34, it definitely sits a lot lower in the hand than most guns. All that really needs to happen with that is to cock your wrists pretty far forward. The grip serves a purpose of sorts as well. I once shot a Glock 21 right alongside a 1911 in .45 and (surprise) I got better accuracy out of the 1911 (the gun I grew up shooting) but the G21 sat so much lower in the hand that the recoil seemed significantly less, even from a lighter gun. And the accuracy was still A-zone. My brother has the 21 now and he says he can hit apples with it from 60 feet and is unlikely to ever give it back

FWIW I'm not trying to hate on other brands. It's just my experience that I've tried a couple different guns and found that I either dislike the DA/SA action of Sig/beretta/CZ/Tanfo or that I can't bring myself to love the mushy/no reset trigger on the M&P. I'm with you on the solid dislike of the XD...I just don't know why I dislike that gun though haha. You can bring yourself to master almost any gun/trigger (look at those nutters who shoot revolver triggers...10lbs of the longest trigger out there lol), but in the end, it will be what you are most comfortable with. Glock certainly isn't the end all/be all (and they're ugly as the southern end of a northbound horse) but for me they definitely are a tough gun to beat IMO. Hope you like the 34. Mine has done me right.

Also, food for thought: You'll spend more money on ammo than your gun. Easily. Otherwise you're doing it wrong. You probably will wear out parts of your gun, so I specifically recommend guns that are easy to find parts for (S&W, Glock, CZ, Tanfo, Beretta, Sig and maybe the XD). I don't like sending guns to the factory. I just fix them myself (hence my love for guns that have a healthy aftermarket).

[Gooldylocks]

I looked at a XDm 5.25 in 9mm today, I actually didn't think it was terrible compared to some of the others I have looked at. The grip felt way better in 9mm compared to .45. But then I turned over the price tag and had a bit of a heart attack. Kinda crazy expensive. I still got to track down that 34 and give it a try.

On a different topic, is there any real reason to get a CZ over a Tanfo? I haven't ever shot a Tanfoglio, but they seem to make everything that CZ does, just cheaper. Are they that much worse, or are you not going to notice the difference?

[kneelingatlas]

On a different topic, is there any real reason to get a CZ over a Tanfo? I haven't ever shot a Tanfoglio, but they seem to make everything that CZ does, just cheaper. Are they that much worse, or are you not going to notice the difference?

When you're talking about the top end competition pistols both CZs and Tanfoglios are hard to find and sell at a premium. That being said, the Tanfo steel line is a significantly better value than the CZ75B.

Which is better? I own 11 CZ75 pattern pistols including a CZs, Tanfoglio, Jericho's and a Canik so I can tell you fully tuned they all have very similar potential.

All the pistols handle very similarly, although the checkering on the Tanfo Elite pistols is way more aggressive. Out of the box the CZ DA triggers are sligthy better and I think have slightly better potential when fully tuned. The Tanfo are far better looking.

As for the SA triggers the CZ Tactical Sport/Czechmate is hands down the best. The Limited .40 trigger is way worse out of the box, fully tuned it's closer, but it makes up some ground with load options: the TS likes few bullet types and can't be loaded very long (it's small framed), but the Limited can take a variety of bullets and load a variety of lengths (really long using 10mm mags).

Hope this helps.