Can you have more targets than you're required to shoot?

[sperman]

The rulebook defines 2 types of targets: Scoring targets and no-shoots. Some scoring targets are also disappearing targets, which means they don't incur a penalty if you don't shoot at them, but there are certain criteria that must be met for a target to be considered a disappearing target. There is no such thing as a non-scoring target.

If you really think this is a possibility, you should ask NROI.

[austex]

The rulebook defines 2 types of targets: Scoring targets and no-shoots. .... There is no such thing as a non-scoring target.

If you really think this is a possibility, you should ask NROI.

The rule book refers to scoring targets and to no-shoots, but nothing appears to expressly ban non-scoring targets. For an example, look at classifier 06-07, which uses Pepper Poppers as hardcover. Pepper Poppers, of course, can be either scoring targets or no-shoots, but the black Pepper Poppers in 06-07 certainly appear to be non-scoring targets. At a minimum, that classifier demonstrates that a target can be something other than a scoring target or a no-shoot.

Asking NROI would certainly resolve the question if it provided an official interpretation. To me, though, such an interpretation likely would supplement the rule book, instead of convincing me that the current rules actually require either view.

Graham's hypothetical stage with a choice of a 50 yd wide open array or a 10 yd A zone array certainly sounds interesting and fun, but I can see some problems with such a stage. For example, which targets are scored if the shooter fires at all of 'em?

[Nik Habicht]

There's no such thing as a non-scoring target in USPSA. A Target is either scoring or penalty.......

Not anything in between.....

[Nik Habicht]

The rulebook defines 2 types of targets: Scoring targets and no-shoots. .... There is no such thing as a non-scoring target.

If you really think this is a possibility, you should ask NROI.

The rule book refers to scoring targets and to no-shoots, but nothing appears to expressly ban non-scoring targets. For an example, look at classifier 06-07, which uses Pepper Poppers as hardcover. Pepper Poppers, of course, can be either scoring targets or no-shoots, but the black Pepper Poppers in 06-07 certainly appear to be non-scoring targets. At a minimum, that classifier demonstrates that a target can be something other than a scoring target or a no-shoot.

Asking NROI would certainly resolve the question if it provided an official interpretation. To me, though, such an interpretation likely would supplement the rule book, instead of convincing me that the current rules actually require either view.

Graham's hypothetical stage with a choice of a 50 yd wide open array or a 10 yd A zone array certainly sounds interesting and fun, but I can see some problems with such a stage. For example, which targets are scored if the shooter fires at all of 'em?

Those poppers aren't targets anymore -- they're hardcover. They masy be in the same general shape as a target, but on that stage they are not a target -- they are hardcover.

[whitedog]

Rule book seems clear. There are 2 types of targets. 1 type is good. 1 is bad ju ju. Pretty simple.

Not sure where the gray comes in. Explain?

[sperman]

What's more, you claim they are both scoring targets and non-scoring targets at the same time. If I can get points for putting holes in T1, it is a scoring target. But you say I can shoot T2 instead, and skip T1. Your argument makes no sense.

[mhs]

9.5.1 Unless otherwise specified in the written stage briefing, scoring paper targets must be shot with a minimum of one round each, with the best two hits to score.

10.2.7 A competitor who fails to shoot at any scoring target with at least one round will incur one procedural penalty per target, plus the applicable number of misses, except where the provisions of Rules 9.2.4.4 or 9.9.2 apply.

Imagine a simple stage consisting of a shooting box and a single array of six scoring paper targets. WSB:

"Engage any three targets with a minimum of one round each, on those three targets the best two hits per target will be scored.

Engage the other three targets with a minimum of zero rounds each, for those targets the best zero hits per target will be scored.

If more than three targets receive scoring hits, one proceedural for each target over three will be applied."

This way you get three proceedurals regardless of whether you engage more than three targets, and you don't get any extra points for engaging more than three. Legal?

[sperman]

I really can't understand the fascination with this sort of stage. Our sport is about shooting. It's not about figuring which 3 targets to engage to give you the best hit factor.

If I saw a stage like that, i would arbitrate it and reference the following rules:

1.1.2 Quality – The value of an USPSA match is determined by the quality

of the challenge presented in the course design. Courses of fire must be

designed primarily to test a competitor’s USPSA shooting skills, not

their physical abilities.

I know 1.1.2 specifically references physical abilities, but I think the same applies for the stage above. Does the stage listed primarily test a competitor's shooting skills?

1.1.5 Freestyle – USPSA matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permitted

to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot

targets on an “as and when visible” basis.....

How can you have targets that I'm not allowed to shoot?

1.1.6 Difficulty – USPSA matches present varied degrees of difficulty. No

shooting challenge or time limit may be appealed as being prohibitive.

This does not apply to nonshooting challenges, which should reasonably

allow for differences in competitor’s height and physical build.

Again, 1.1.6 references physical differences, but it also makes reference to nonshooting challenges. IMO the stage listed above is about figuring out which targets to engage, not about shooting.

Somehow you completely ignore 10.2.7, even though you reference it in your own post. It says you must engage each target with at least one round, not zero rounds.

[mhs]

I really can't understand the fascination with this sort of stage. Our sport is about shooting. It's not about figuring which 3 targets to engage to give you the best hit factor.

If I saw a stage like that, i would arbitrate it and reference the following rules:

1.1.2 Quality – The value of an USPSA match is determined by the quality

of the challenge presented in the course design. Courses of fire must be

designed primarily to test a competitor’s USPSA shooting skills, not

their physical abilities.

I know 1.1.2 specifically references physical abilities, but I think the same applies for the stage above. Does the stage listed primarily test a competitor's shooting skills?

1.1.5 Freestyle – USPSA matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permitted

to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot

targets on an “as and when visible” basis.....

How can you have targets that I'm not allowed to shoot?

1.1.6 Difficulty – USPSA matches present varied degrees of difficulty. No

shooting challenge or time limit may be appealed as being prohibitive.

This does not apply to nonshooting challenges, which should reasonably

allow for differences in competitor’s height and physical build.

Again, 1.1.6 references physical differences, but it also makes reference to nonshooting challenges. IMO the stage listed above is about figuring out which targets to engage, not about shooting.

Somehow you completely ignore 10.2.7, even though you reference it in your own post. It says you must engage each target with at least one round, not zero rounds.

1. Standing in a box and shooting three targets of your choice, in my opinion, would primarily test shooting skills.

2. You are allowed to shoot them, it just might not get you the best score. Just like shooting targets more than twice is allowed, but might not get you the best score. It's freestyle, the shooter gets to decide.

3. I don't see how 1.1.6 applies. The nonshooting challenges here would not be influenced by height or physical build.

4. 10.2.7 would require one proceedural per target not engaged with at least one round. If you do engage all the tagets you wouldn't get the FTSA penalties, but you would get the WSB penalties. Since you wouldn't get any points for engaging the last three targets, and a proceedural per each regardless of your actions, there would be no reason to engage them.

[sperman]

So I shoot 6 alphas and get 30 points, and then I get 3 procedurals and lose 30 points. The best score I can get on the stage is zero.

[mhs]

So I shoot 6 alphas and get 30 points, and then I get 3 procedurals and lose 30 points. The best score I can get on the stage is zero.

Good point. How about if the WSB were changed to:

"Engage any four targets with a minimum of one round each, on those four targets the best two hits per target will be scored.

Engage the other two targets with a minimum of zero rounds each, for those targets the best zero hits per target will be scored.

If more than four targets receive scoring hits, one proceedural for each target over four will be applied."

In this case you could get 20 points.

[whitedog]

Or just have the type of targets in the rules? Not make it a mental decathlon.

In this scenario, not only do I have to figure out the best way to shoot it, I also have to figure out what targets to engage? And then hope every RO is able to score it the same?

Because you can do a thing, does not always mean it should be done. I believe confusion would run rampant....

[Gary Stevens]

How can I engage with zero rounds?

WSB's have to comply with the rules. You just can't make stuff up.

Edited December 21, 2013 by Gary Stevens

[mhs]

How can I engage with zero rounds?

WSB's have to comply with the rules. You just can't make stuff up.

I don't believe that you can engage with zero rounds. That's why you would get a FSA penalty for each target that you didn't shoot at. The reason the WSB specified "a minimum of zero rounds" was to prevent miss penalties.

9.5.1 seems to specifically allow the WSB to state minimum rounds required:

9.5.1 Unless otherwise specified in the written stage briefing, scoring paper targets must be shot with a minimum of one round each, with the best two hits to score.

Edited December 21, 2013 by mhs

[bikerburgess]

I think what 9.5.1 is saying is unless otherwise stated all targets are best 2 per paper but you wont get a FTSA penalty if you shoot at it once, it also leave it up to the WSB to state the number of required hits if it is going to be some number other than 2 (1,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11, or 12) it also implies that a evil MD could say that a target would need to be engaged with a number of shots other than 1 in order to avoid FTSA penalties. the problem I have is I don't think you can specify ZERO as a number of rounds, you have either engaged a target (meaning fired one or more rounds at it) or you haven't (meaning you have fired zero rounds at it) I don't think you can have both.

Mike

[mhs]

I think what 9.5.1 is saying is unless otherwise stated all targets are best 2 per paper but you wont get a FTSA penalty if you shoot at it once, it also leave it up to the WSB to state the number of required hits if it is going to be some number other than 2 (1,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11, or 12) it also implies that a evil MD could say that a target would need to be engaged with a number of shots other than 1 in order to avoid FTSA penalties. the problem I have is I don't think you can specify ZERO as a number of rounds, you have either engaged a target (meaning fired one or more rounds at it) or you haven't (meaning you have fired zero rounds at it) I don't think you can have both.

Mike

No one is arguing that, as far as I can tell. If you don't shoot at it, you haven't engaged it.

The reason the WSB would specify zero as the minimum number of rounds is to eliminate miss penalties under 10.2.7:

10.2.7 A competitor who fails to shoot at any scoring target with at least one round will incur one procedural penalty per target, plus the applicable number of misses, except where the provisions of Rules 9.2.4.4 or 9.9.2 apply.

If zero rounds are allowed in the WSB, you get zero penalties for missing, since you didn't. You do get one FTS per target that you didn't shoot at.

Edited December 21, 2013 by mhs

[Nik Habicht]

How can I engage with zero rounds?

WSB's have to comply with the rules. You just can't make stuff up.

I don't believe that you can engage with zero rounds. That's why you would get a FSA penalty for each target that you didn't shoot at. The reason the WSB specified "a minimum of zero rounds" was to prevent miss penalties.

9.5.1 seems to specifically allow the WSB to state minimum rounds required:

9.5.1 Unless otherwise specified in the written stage briefing, scoring paper targets must be shot with a minimum of one round each, with the best two hits to score.

You can't write something into a WSB to negate a rule, unless the rulebook specifically grants you an exemption for that....

[Flexmoney]

The rule book is pretty mature. Heck, we have beat it around here for over a decade and it holds up well.

I am sure if USPSA wanted to say you could shoot some targets some time, and other targets other times (like proposed here)...it would be clear in saying that. It doesn't.

[mhs]

How can I engage with zero rounds?

WSB's have to comply with the rules. You just can't make stuff up.

I don't believe that you can engage with zero rounds. That's why you would get a FSA penalty for each target that you didn't shoot at. The reason the WSB specified "a minimum of zero rounds" was to prevent miss penalties.

9.5.1 seems to specifically allow the WSB to state minimum rounds required:

9.5.1 Unless otherwise specified in the written stage briefing, scoring paper targets must be shot with a minimum of one round each, with the best two hits to score.

You can't write something into a WSB to negate a rule, unless the rulebook specifically grants you an exemption for that....

What rule would be negated? You would still get the applicable number of mikes, the number would just be zero.

[Sarge]

WOW! I am really baffled by this whole idea. Why not just build a creative stage, write a solid WSB and shoot the darn thing. Sure, for fun shoots we have had a stage with different color targets and you selected a color to shoot but there is no way a stage that says shoot this or this, can be equitable for all shooters, especially in a legit match. Just put a popper out there at 50 yards and have some poor sap go reset it every shooter.

[sperman]

Since you refuse to listen to all of the people here who have told you it is illegal, please send your question to Amidon. I would love to read his response. Until then, I'm done wasting my time on this thread.

[mhs]

The rule book is pretty mature. Heck, we have beat it around here for over a decade and it holds up well.

I am sure if USPSA wanted to say you could shoot some targets some time, and other targets other times (like proposed here)...it would be clear in saying that. It doesn't.

I'm not comfortable trying to decide what USPSA wanted to say in the rulebook. I try to go by what they did say. In this stage:

"Imagine a simple stage consisting of a shooting box and a single array of six scoring paper targets. WSB:

Engage any four targets with a minimum of one round each, on those four targets the best two hits per target will be scored.

Engage the other two targets with a minimum of zero rounds each, for those targets the best zero hits per target will be scored.

If more than four targets receive scoring hits, one proceedural for each target over four will be applied."

the round requirements are allowed by 9.5.1. No one has come up with a rule (as written, not "interpreted") that makes the stage illegal. You've been intimately involved with the rules for a long time, can you come up with one?

[Chills1994]

If that is a local match, I hope they have dedicated RO's at that stage the whole time. If the RO's float with the squads, I am guessing there will be one squad that will screw it up. Then the MD will be faced with throwing the stage out.

Edited December 22, 2013 by Chills1994

[Nik Habicht]

I had to break my reply up into three parts, as I was exceeding the allowable number of quotes....

1.1.5 Freestyle – USPSA matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permitted to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot targets on an “as and when visible” basis. Courses of fire must not require mandatory reloads nor dictate a shooting position, location or stance, except as specified below. However, conditions may be created, and barriers or other physical limitations may be constructed, to compel a competitor into shooting positions, locations or stances.

Basically -- if you put it out there, and it looks like a target, the competitor gets to shoot at it without penalty. You can't decide to contravene the written rule -- if you could what would be the point of having a rulebook? Everyone could just make-up whatever they wanted in a WSB.....

1.1.5.1 Level I matches may use shooting boxes and specify where or when specific target arrays may be engaged, and may specify mandatory reloads in short and medium courses only (not in a
long course).

Note there's no exemption granted for having targets that are not ever to be engaged.

1.2.1.1 “Short Courses” must not require more than 8 rounds to complete and no more than 2 shooting locations.

Based on round count your stage looks like a short course.

1.2.2.1 “Standard Exercises” - Courses of fire consisting of two or more separately timed component strings. Scores, with any penalties deducted, are accumulated on completion of the course of fire to produce the final stage results. Standard Exercises must only be scored using Virginia Count or Fixed Time. The course of fire for each component string may require a specific shooting position, procedure and/or one or more mandatory reloads. Standard Exercises must not require more than 24 rounds to complete. Component strings must not require more than 6 rounds (12
rounds if a mandatory reload is specified).

While this might permit what you want to do, during a component string, your proposed stage does not contain multiple strings, hence it's a no-go.

[Nik Habicht]

2.1.4 Target Locations – When a course is constructed to include target locations other than immediately downrange, organizers and officials must protect or restrict surrounding areas to which competitors, officials or spectators have access. Each competitor must be allowed to solve the competitive problem in his own way and must not be hindered by being forced to act in any manner which might cause unsafe action. Targets must be arranged so that shooting at them on an “as and when visible” basis will not cause competitors to breach safe angles of fire.

Again -- if the competitor can see it, he can engage it without penalty......

2.1.8.5.1 Level I matches are encouraged but not required to strictly comply with this requirement. The written stage briefing may prohibit competitors from engaging certain target(s) which may be visible prior to activation until the operation of the activating mechanism has been initiated (see Rule 9.9.4).

Here's a rule that allows you to forbid engagement of certain targets -- but the caveat is that they have to unactivated movers....

Chapter 4 describes the requirements for targets -- had the rules writers intended to include optional static targets, they would have been mentioned. Also:

4.1.2 Scoring targets used in all USPSA Handgun matches must be of a single color, as follows:

4.1.2.1 The scoring area of scoring paper targets must be of a typical cardboard color.

So if it looks like a scoring target, it's a scoring target.....

4.1.3 No-shoots must be clearly marked or be of a single color different from scoring targets. Metal no-shoots in the general size and shape of authorized paper targets may be used. Metal no-shoots do not have a nonscoring border.

.....and not a no-shoot