Starting with gun "on" table

[Vince Pinto]

Is the RO/CRO responsible for stage briefing interpretation and/or deciding that a competitors UNIQUE interpretation of the stage briefing should be allowed or not? If this went to arbitration how do you think the competitor would fare?

The best answer I can give you is that the RO/CRO must ensure consistency with the start position. Hence even if the stage briefing was written vaguely, provided the RO/CRO ensured that everybody started the COF in exactly the same way, a competitor would just be contributing $100 to the RO "Rum & Coke Fund" if he tried to appeal the start position to Arbitration.

Of course once the Start Signal is issued, it's every man for himself

[Skywalker]

The best answer I can give you is that the RO/CRO must ensure consistency with the start position. Hence even if the stage briefing was written vaguely, provided the RO/CRO ensured that everybody started the COF in exactly the same way,

Vince,

I really need to understand you here...

It was my understanding that the RO/CRO had to ensure that every competitor started the COF complying with the written stage briefing, not in exactly the same way.

If the stage briefing leaves some leeway on how to place a gun on the table, is the RO/CRO entitled to (restrictively) interpret the starting procedure?

I guess the correct solution would be: the RM changes the stage starting position in the written stage briefing, ask all competitors (if any) that didn't comply with this new position to re-shoot the stage, and the stage goes on as per the new starting position.

Lacking this, I'm having a hard time in understanding that a RO can dictate his interpretation of the written stage briefing.

Would your interpretation be the same if the the written starting position said "...gun laid flat on the table, not propped in any way", and upon me placing the gun near the edge of the table the RO/CRO requires me to place it in the table centre?

Are these two situations (gun laid flat or standing, and centered or displaced) really different, to require different interpretations?

a competitor would just be contributing $100 to the RO "Rum & Coke Fund" if he tried to appeal the start position to Arbitration.

So, this is where the abitration fee goes in a Lev. I/II competition?

[Filthy1]

It was my understanding that the RO/CRO had to ensure that every competitor started the COF complying with the written stage briefing, not in exactly the same way.

I think Skywalker hit the nail on the head.

No offence Vince, but I can't even believe you replied that way:

The best answer I can give you is that the RO/CRO must ensure consistency with the start position.

What happened to FREESTYLE??? If half way through a match, I, as a competitor after hearing the stage briefing that specifies Start Position "Gun Loaded & Holstered, competitor within the confines of "Box A" decides that I want to start lying on my weak side on the ground, say, because there is a low port infront of the start position, should a RO say "You can't start like that because the previous competitors didn't start like that" (any other rules aside). Sure sounds that way from your reply.

Please clarify you answer... tell me you didn't mean it that way...tell me you were sleeping when you replied...anything...please...

Phil

[Vince Pinto]

Hi guys,

I meant exactly what I said: There is no freestyle with start positions.

Of course, as I said earlier, it's far better for the written stage briefing to be written clearly and unambiguously but, having said that, the most important thing is consistency. If there's a table start, and there's a box or marked area, then there's no problem which way you lay the gun down (e.g. on it's left or right side), but even if the "gun on table" is vague, the RO/CRO can indeed dictate that the gun must be laid flat on a side and not erect.

[Nik Habicht]

Hi guys,

I meant exactly what I said: There is no freestyle with start positions.

Of course, as I said earlier, it's far better for the written stage briefing to be written clearly and unambiguously but, having said that, the most important thing is consistency. If there's a table start, and there's a box or marked area, then there's no problem which way you lay the gun down (e.g. on it's left or right side), but even if the "gun on table" is vague, the RO/CRO can indeed dictate that the gun must be laid flat on a side and not erect.

Really? What if the stage description is purposely vague? If I design a stage that specifies a start position of "Standing erect, within the confines of box A, hands anywhere the shooter wants them, (except touching the gun of course)" that you're gonna tell me that it's an illegal start position?

How about those stages that are built symmetrically, with two start positions at the right or left of the stage, with it being shooters choice as to where to start? Or a start position that specifies "Standing, anywhere within freefire zone A?"

Enquiring minds want to learn....

[bgary]

I meant exactly what I said: There is no freestyle with start positions.

Wow.

That's another interpretation that, IMHO, pretty fundamentally changes the nature of the game.

I would be hard-pressed to find language in the rulebook that supports that interpretation (and, with all respect, I fervently hope you don't write any).

Freestyle is the *cornerstone* of our sport. The premise has always been "that which is not expressly prohibited, is expressly allowed".

In course design, it is not uncommon for course designers to specifically and intentionally leave the start position ambiguous, to allow for different approaches. A course description might say, for example, "start position is touching the table". The course can *legally* be shot whether you start touching the table with hand, foot, elbow, arse, forehead, whatever you want.

I believe that the RO must enforce the written course description consistently for all shooters. But I do not believe that means that all shooters must adopt exactly the same start position, if the course description allows interpretation. And I for-sure do not believe that the RO has the authority to "interpret" the course description and define "what it means". He/she is bound to enforce what is written there, or to ask the RM to change the course description.

In the US, especially at the Nationals, we direct the RO to read the course description - verbatim - to all squads (3.2.2). The RO is specifically asked not to embellish, interpret, or otherwise modify the course description, because to do so would affect the outcome of the competition. If there is a problem with the course description, the *only* right action to take is to have the RM change it, as provided for in 3.2.3

But to have an RO decide "what the start position means" affects the competition, and limits freestyle. That's just wrong. He has no obligation to ensure that everyone starts the same way, only to ensure that everyone started in full compliance with the written instructions.

</rant>

Bruce

[diehli]

Bruce: A-f@#$in'-men!

[Tman33_99]

Bruce,

Excellant response. I design many courses for our local club. Sometimes I am specific to the nth degree on the start postion, and sometimes it is "Standing in Area A, hands relaxed at sides", and Area A is an area that covers most of the berm.

[ErikW]

BUT I can place a mag under my gun to prop it up because you didn't say I couldn't.

The course designer doesn't have to specify no mag propping because the rulebook says all mags start on your belt unless otherwise specified.

In about a week when the US uses the new rulebook we can ignore the "hammer down" or whatever language and just specify the ready condition as per the rulebook. In fact, we must.

[Jim Norman]

And the ready condition is:

8.2.1 The handgun is prepared as specified in the written stage briefing,

and is in compliance with the requirements of the relevant

Division.

8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written

stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor

must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms hanging naturally

by the sides.

So, if I don't specify a particular condition, such as loaded gun, in holster what happens?

Let's see.

Gun on table, shooter in Box A hands on knees.

What are your collective calls?

Oh, And I am not saying I would write this, but...

Jim

[ErikW]

So, if I don't specify a particular condition, such as loaded gun, in holster what happens?

I reference rules 3.2.1 and 8.1.3 in my arbitration and get your stage thrown out, out of spite.

[Jim Norman]

Nope, not at my match.

3.2.1 We have a written brief and the ready condition is, since not otherwise specified (8.1.3) round chambered, safety applied OR decocked (Prod)

Jim

[Skywalker]

Guys,

please let's not drift from the original question, because I really want to learn something here.

Vince, you said:

I meant exactly what I said: There is no freestyle with start positions.

Of course, as I said earlier, it's far better for the written stage briefing to be written clearly and unambiguously but, having said that, the most important thing is consistency. If there's a table start, and there's a box or marked area, then there's no problem which way you lay the gun down (e.g. on it's left or right side), but even if the "gun on table" is vague, the RO/CRO can indeed dictate that the gun must be laid flat on a side and not erect.

Now, I'd really like to find support in the rules for your statements, but all I can find is (relevant parts in bold):

8.2 Competitor Ready Condition

This designates when, under the direct command of a Range Officer:

8.2.1 The handgun is prepared as specified in the written stage briefing, and is in compliance with the requirements

of the relevant Division.

8.3.1 "Load And Make Ready" – This command signifies the start of "the Course of Fire". Under the direct supervision of the Range Officer the competitor must face down range, or in a safe direction as specified by the Range Officer, fit eye and ear protection, and prepare the handgun in accordance with the written stage briefing. The competitor must then assume the required start position. At this point, the Range Officer will proceed.

To me it looks like, inside the boundaries of the written stage briefing, a competitor is entitled to do what he thinks best, not what he is allowed to do according to the RO's interpretation of the written starting position.

Would you please show me the correct rules that say the RO can dictate the starting position apart from what is written into the stage briefing?

Edited to add: I really can't believe a RO/CRO can dictate anything that's not included in the written stage briefing, when it comes to starting position/condition. To me, there are only two solutions:

1. The RM changes the written stage briefing (as I stated in my original post and Bruce supported) to better reflect what he deems to be fair and equitable for everybody.

2. Leave things as they are, allowing creativity on the competitors' side.

Edited November 25, 2004 by Skywalker

[Jim Norman]

Luca,

I am in agreement with you. that as long as the stage brief says something about haow to stand or place the gun it is open to interpetation. Unfortunately, with the new rule book, there is a implied ready condtion and position that if I say nothing takes effect.

So If I say gun on table, mags on table, standing in box, I feel that as long as the gun and mags are on the table, in any maner and I am standing in the box, then there is no restriction, within the bounds of other applicable rules, as to where on the table the gun and mags are or how I position myself in the box. BUT, if I say nothing then the book takes over and I am loaded, holstered, standing erect facing downrange.

I think that this was another rule we did not need. The RO should not be interpeting the walk-through, that is the RM's job, and it is best done before the match.

As an example, when specifying a table start here, we will generally put an X on the table, and specify, Gun loaded, or slideforward, hammer down on an empty cylinder, lying on X pointing downrange, no propping. Then go one to specify, seated in chair, back against chairback, feet flat on ground, hands clasped behing head. The RO will tell you that the top of your head is not the back of your head, but otherwise, you are constrained to the brief.

Just one example. We will also have a start that says, standing at rear fault line. Here you can assume any position along the rear fault line, You want to start in the middle, fine, all the way left or right equally fine.

Jim Norman

[blackdragon]

I remember back in the day, so to speak we actually had a use for our holsters.

Ivan

[Jim Norman]

I think holstered starts are still the majority start. Probably 95% or more of the time, that is how we start. However, we do have drawer, briefcase, and table starts. This thread is about those types of starts. We have actually not used a table start in the last several months at the clubs i shoot at, that would be no table starts in say 60 stages, so from my point of view, the holster is still well used.

Jim Norman

[stevepitt]

One of my favorite stage descriptions was "standing somewhere".... You did have to shoot everything through a port, but where you started was TOTALLY up to you. This opened up amazing possibilities on how to shoot the stage Since some ports were angled, both sides of a port could be used to shoot targets. Targets were spread out over the entire berm. Very cool freestyle stage!

I agree with Bruce Gary's interpretation.... and so I don't thread drift, the guns in the picture would not be a legal start, since we aren't allowed 2 guns! Sorry, couldn't resist!

Steve Pitt

[Vince Pinto]

In course design, it is not uncommon for course designers to specifically and intentionally leave the start position ambiguous, to allow for different approaches.

Sure but, by the same token, an RO can also require all competitors to observe a consistent and uniform start position. For example, if the written stage briefing says "Gun laid flat on table", an RO worth his salt would not require a competitor to remove his 2" wide slide racker, even though the RO could argue that such a gun could not be laid flat while the slide racker was attached.

However if you insist that a more vague "gun on table" does not permit an RO to enforce a particular orientation, then I trust you will not complain if an RO requires you to remove your slide racker when the briefing includes the word "flat".

Bottom line: let's not make a mountain out of a molehill.

[Jim Norman]

[deleted] If the start postion is gun lying on flat on table, no props allowed then you cannot place a magazine or a stone or your shoe under the gun. Your slide racker, safety, thumb rest or slide stop are integral parts of the gun. If they rais the gun off the table slightly, so be it. You of course may not alter your gun from stage to stage, so you better be able to holster and draw your gun with that 2" racker and extended slide stop in place. Youcan't install them just for this stage. If however, the start postions is Gun on table, then as long as the gun is "on the table" youare good to go.

Oh and I'd complain like hell if I was told to alter my USPSA legal gun at an RO's whim.

Jim Norman

Edited December 3, 2004 by Flexmoney

[Vince Pinto]

Oh and I'd complain like hell if I was told to alter my USPSA legal gun at an RO's whim.

You could complain until the cows come home, but if the written stage briefing says "Gun laid flat on table", then you must comply, failing which the RO could lawfully refuse to start you or he could issue a procedural penalty.

However if it's not already apparent to you, I'm taking the Devil's Advocate position to counter the claim that an RO cannot (for argument's sake) stop competitors from standing their guns upright when the written stage briefing simply says "Gun on table", because adding the word "flat" would mean that many competitors simply could not comply without modifying their guns, and we're not in the business of asking competitors to mess with their guns in order to comply with a start position.

In other words if you, as I do, think it's unreasonable to require competitors to remove their slide racker, then competitors shouldn't be bloody-minded when an RO explains that, for consistency, "Gun on table" means "Gun on it's side on table".

[Dead Buff]

It's all about consistency. Yes if the course was designed as "start like you want in area X" it is just as consistent to have all start in one fixed position. As long as everybody knows it and the RO knows it before he/she starts the first shooter all is fine.

If the RO says "...gun on table..." and nothing else and you put it safely and securely on your flat toped scope and he says nothing, I would assume you are good to go....

[Skywalker]

You could complain until the cows come home, but if the written stage briefing says "Gun laid flat on table", then you must comply, failing which the RO could lawfully refuse to start you or he could issue a procedural penalty.

Vince,

aside from already stated different opinions on the RO discretionality upon interpreting the written stage briefing, I'd like to learn more about this last comment of yours.

It was my understanding that a competitor that was not complying with the starting position/condition couldn't be started. Period.

Rule 8.3.1 says that only when the competitor has assumed the required starting position the RO can proceed with the commands sequence.

The only exception to this might have been (possibly) granted by rule 10.1.2 (e.g. a kneeling start position, with both knees on the ground, and a competitor that, due to previous injuries, is not able to fully stand up from that starting position).

Now you say that the RO has the choice of refusing to start the competitor or issue a procedural.

Where am I lacking something?

[Vince Pinto]

Luca,

See Rule 10.2.2.

If the WSB says "Gun laid flat on table" and the competitor is unable to comply because, say, his 2" slide racker is permanently welded to his slide, then the only option available to the RO is to issue a procedural penalty, because the competitor would have an advantage over all other competitors who can lay their guns flat on the table.

[Skywalker]

...hmmmm...

I have to think about this, because I'm not sure I would like/buy it...

...my first gut feeling is that rule 10.2.2 applies to stage procedures (i.e. what you have to do after the beep), not to conditions and/or positions, and since these three things are clearly defined as separated items in rule 3.2.1, I guess procedurals as per 10.2.2 are only applicable to stage procedures.

Other penalties to be applied before the beep or after the holster portion of the ICHDH command are specifically stated in the rulebook, and there is no specific provision for procedurals to be applied for starting condition/position non compliance (apart the one for creeping)...

But, as I said, I have to think about it.

BTW, wouldn't it be easier to request the competitor to lay his/her gun flat on the table on the opposite side of the slide racker?

[Dead Buff]

BTW, wouldn't it be easier to request the competitor to lay his/her gun flat on the table on the opposite side of the slide racker?

That can of slimy worms I did not want to mention...watch your back Sky...they are coming for you....