Not another optics thread..: Limited choice in Europe, help a new shoo

[michielker]

Hello! Long time lurker, new member!

I know there are a lot of similar threads, but I'll try to explain why I found it was necessary to start another one.

Introduction:
I'm 28 years old and live in Belgium, Europe and have been shooting IPSC with an STI Edge for 6 years now and usually end up with a top10, sometimes top5 place in national competition matches. I have competed in a few international matches (EEO 2009, Med-Cup in France, SVI Open in Germany).

Next to IPSC pistol, I would now like to start shooting IPSC rifle. After about 6 months waiting, I finally got my license for a .223 rifle and I've just bought an STI Competition rifle last week. Now I'm in the market for a decent optic for IPSC (dynamic shooting) and I figured the the 3-gun forum would be a good place to get some advice.

Important notice:
We have a very limited choice for firearms, parts, optics, mounts etc. Importing from the US is not that easy and can get expensive and be quite a hassle. So I'm very much limited to what I can find online in Europe. **update** I will be shooting in open!

Shooting ranges:
Most ranges in Belgium are 30 yard handgun ranges. For dynamic shooting (IPSC) with a rifle, the ranges are 55 yards and 110 yards. There are a few target-shooting (no dynamic) ranges that are up to 330 yards for occassional target shooting.

For optics my choices are limited to:
- Vortex Viper PST 1-4x24 30mm tube + Vortex cantilever QR mount : 750€
- Burris MTac 1-4x24 IR BCQ556 Combi with FastFire and PEPR mount : 800€
- EoTech XPS2-0 (including mount) : 520€
- AIMPOINT M4 (including mount) : 720€
- 3x magnifier with mount for Eotech/Aimponit: +- 550€

- NXS 1-4x24mm .250 MOA Compact (without mount!): +/- 1.400€

I would like to stick with one setup (not having to switch).

For IPSC most stages will be <50 yards with some shots up to 100 yards (every month). Longer shots will only be on international matches only, so perhaps one match a year with shots up to 300 yards. Occasional long range target practice will be up to 330 yards, maybe twice a year. So 90% of my shots will be short distance and aiming for an A-zone (so not too accurate but very fast).

Eotech/Aimpoint:
These will be best for fast target acquisition, but lack some magnifing for target shooting at longer distances. I have looked through both and prefer the Eotech. The batterylife issue and being less rugged are not an issue for my useage so I've pretty much ruled out the Aimpoint but kept it on the list for now.

A 3x magnifier seems like a good addition, but they are about the same price the viper scope or the eotech... how is this possible?

Vortex:
Seems like a popular choice and a very decent quality scope. More expensive then an Eotech and probably not that fast for fast close targets.

Burris MTAC Combo:
Seems like a great deal: a decent variable scope with good eye relief, a small holographic sight and the right type of mount for my rifle. Mounting the holographic sight on top of the scope seems a bit weird for me? I would prefer it to the side of the rifle (so you tilt the rifle instead). But again, getting the different mounts are expensive and hard to come by.

NXS:

Probably an amazing scope, but at 1.400€ without a mount (add 250€), this seems very expensive.

So please, give you me your advice/experiences but please keep in mind that I have a limited choice, won't ever shoot past 300yards and 90% of my shots will be under 100 yards.

Thank you so much!

Edited September 9, 2013 by michielker

[Carregatrap]

Hallo,

Waar ben je actief? Ik ben zelf een paar maand geleden begonnen met LVR in afwachting in feite om Ipsc-rifle te kunnen schieten. Danny Wauters is nu een ar-15 aan het bouwen voor mij.

Het zou uiteraard plezanter zijn mochten we op één of andere manier elkaar kunnen bijstaan bij het beoefenen van het rifle gebeuren. Met zoveel zijn we dan weer niet, ik ken alleen Carl Deleu die internationaal schiet! Ikzelf had volgend jaar graag de Estonian open meegeschoten.

Voor een scope, ga even bij Wauters langs, hij heeft magnifieke IOR's liggen!

Sorry guys, this was a Belgian to Belgian chat.

[caspian guy]

Meopta?

[kurtm]

Having shot a few European rifle matches, I will say this. ANY sight you chose, that has glass in it, will put you in Open Division. Since IPSC Rifle rarely goes beyond 300m, any of your choices will work. The short coming of the Eotec/Aimpoint is that it is not a fast system to use with a Magnifier. In my opinion, you are far better served by a 1-4X scope Like the Meopta K-Dot, or Vortex than any other of your choices.

Don't over look Standard Semi-Auto division as well. Since IPSC has had the fore sight to paint targets for each shooter, and the long range targets are usualy very generous in size and well presented, a good set of Iron Sights can be very fun and competitive, AND they ar substantially cheaper.

Note to U.S. shooters:

In IPSC there are only two divisions. Open or Standard (what we call limited) So before you all start recomending any type of red dot sight.....that is Open gear, Standard means IRON sights only overseas!

Edited September 9, 2013 by kurtm

[MikeE]

Meopta K-Dot +1

[michielker]

Thanks for the replies so far,

kurtm : you are correct, this will put me in open, I don't mind though.

I still don't get the advantages of a scope over an Eotech? The Eotech offers the biggest Eye Box possible and the big circle with the smal make it easy to find your target quickly. I agree for longer range and accuracy a scope is definatly better.. but we are shooting A-zone targets, not a bulls-eye and usually below 100 yards. For those few longer range shots, I could add a cheaper 3x magnifier with a slap-mount?

Update:

I have found a cheaper alternative for a Eotech/Aimpoint magnifier and have found a dealer for a SightMark 3x magnifier with a STS mount for 200€. So an Eotech+Magnifier will add up to about the same cost as a Vortex PST with mount.

Update2:

I haven't heard about Meopta before but did found a dealer for a Meopta Meostar 1-4 x 22 R1 K-dot 30mm, which comes in at 800€, but this is without a mount! So that should add up to about 1.000€ complete with a mount. That is getting expensive for my useage.

What would the advantages of this Meopta scope compared to a Vortex PST? And are they worth the 30% price increase?

Conclusion

Considering budget, I think I better limit my choices to

- Vortex PST 1-4x scope with mount or possibly Burris MTac with mount and holographic fastfire

- Eotech XPS2-0 with 3x magnifier and slap mount for longer distance shots.

Thanks again guys

Edited September 9, 2013 by michielker

[co-exprs]

Irons or the Meopta K-dot or Meopta ZD. Inside 300meters, they are functionally the same.

[MikeE]

I haven't heard about Meopta before but did found a dealer for a Meopta Meostar 1-4 x 22 R1 K-dot 30mm, which comes in at 800€, but this is without a mount! So that should add up to about 1.000€ complete with a mount. That is getting expensive for my useage.

Buy once, cry once.

[atvman400]

I would go with the eotech. If 90% of your shooting is <90 yrds the eotechs are very fast with there pretty much unlimited field of view. I never had trouble hitting steel out to 200 when I used this setup. I'm not sure what the IPSC rules are on the size of targets though compared to the rules here in the states.

Like mentioned before, I wouldn't rule out a good set of irons. I personally like the HK style front site over the standard m-16 style.

[CJW]

I spent my first couple of years in 3-gun shooting an EOTech and a magnifier. With no ability to vary magnification (I had a choice of 5x or nothing), I ended up shooting most stages of 100yds or less with just the EOTech. It is a great sight for those distances and the advantage it gives you over a scope is never having to worry about your eye relief or eye box—if you are hosing on the move, missing your check weld by a little bit means nothing, whereas with a scope it can be the difference between seeing your targets or seeing a whole bunch of dark fuzzy stuff. Now, I ran several of the lower end magnifiers (all basically SightMark quality) and all 5x. I will absolutely grant your that the quality of the glass in the EOTech magnifier is better than the knock-offs...but not enough for me to spend four or five times as much as the cheapie cost.

I have since switched to a 1-6x variable scope, and I am glad I did. It does sounds, however, like your particular conditions do match well with the holosight and magnifier combo. Last bit of advice—even if you do get the cheap magnifier, do not skimp on the mount; you will need some sort of flip-to-side and it needs to be sturdy enough to hold the magnifier solidly. My very first cheap POS mount was so bad, it would shake so much after I shot I could lose the reticle for the followup. I changed that out very quickly!

[jackryan]

Hello

I shoot most IPSC-Rifle matches in the Netherlands....and also in Reijmerswaal

most Dutch shooters use an 1-4 or 1-6 optic on their rifles......

I myself have a Konuspro M-30 1-4x24 on my AR15

if you have more to spend search on huntingforums in Belgium or Germany for a used Zeisss or Swarovski.....

[kurtm]

Michielker, it sounds to me like you have already made up your mind on what you are going to do and are just looking for validation. Enjoy your choice, as no matter what, you will have fun

[mpeltier]

Between the two final choices you've limited yourself to the Vortex is a much better choice for 3-gun. Choose wisely or what you first thought was good for you budget will end up costing you more in the long run. (I do also think the Meopta would be best for you if you can afford it).

[michielker]

Hello,

No, I have not made up my mind yet. I will admit that I'm biased towards an Eotech for there fast target acquisition.

I will need a little more convincing that a 1-4x scope is the better choice for my useage (remember 95% <100 yards).

Good news:
I have contacted Meopta and found a belgian supplier and I'm waiting for there priceoffer for a ZD 1-4x22 with K5.56 Nato reticle. While researching I also came across a store in the Netherlands that offers a lot of scopes and mounts for reasonable prices. Not to advertise, but to show you what my choices are: http://www.optics-world.nl/winkel/index.php?cPath=6 .

Bad news:

More choice!

Also, I definatly agree that it's better to invest a little more then to regret a cheaper investment later. So I'm not going to keep referring to a budget, as long as you guys are keeping it reasonable. Since I will already be shooting in Open division, I figure I can also consider getting two optics (scope and reddot/holographic).

A few options with one optic
- Eotech XPS3.0 + G33 Magnifier with STS (slap) mount : 1.180Euro

- Meopta ZD 1-4x22 with K5.56 Nato reticle : +/- 820Euro (official price 970) + Mount (??) 120-250Euro

- Trijicon AccuPoint 1-4x24 30mm (890Euro) + Mount (??) 120-250Euro

Or go crazy with a double optic setup (start with the scope and add the reddot later)

- Vortex Viper PST 1-4x24 with Vortex Cantilever Mount : 620Euro

- Vortex Razor 3moa reddot with 45 mount: 650Euro

- Combination : 1.270 Euro

- Meopta ZD 1-4x22 with K5.56 Nato reticle : +/- 820Euro (official price 970) + Mount (??) 120-250Euro

- Cheaper reddot with a 45mount : 350Euro

- Combination: 1.300Euro

What would be the absolute best scope I could get on that site for around 1.000Euro? Accupoint, Meopta, ..? And also please convince me some more towards the scope. I'm relieved I can always add a secondary reddot optic later if I find it necessary. Still I really like the Eotech optics.. even though it may not be the best for my useage.

Thanks again and sorry to be such a pain.

[larry weeks]

I'm not as good as my gun and EOTech but when i don't run out of time getting to the rifle, I often hit 200 + targets with the EOTech. At Rockcastle I frequently missed the 150 - 180s and hit the 200. As long as the gun is steady, that 1 minute dot is great. For close stuff, put the circle on the target and shoot. For 10 yard head shots, put the bottom of the circle where you want to hit and you're right on. I have trouble staying on the eyebox of a magnified optic and have pretty much given up ever being able to shoot one in a hurry.

[Carregatrap]

Go for an IOR Tactical scope 1,5-8x26 als main, with a 45% Docter sight III for short range, you're in open, so go full monty.

[patrickbeijer]

Go for the Meopta , the true 1 x is very good for hosing stages and on matches you can attend in Holland you would appreciate the reticle of the Meopta better then de Accupoint from Trijicon.

We use a lot of clays on 100 meter ranges because we only shoot indoors (max 100 meter) thats why we shoot smaller targets , but the size of the dot on the accupoint is way to big and will cover to much of your target.

Also the Meopta is one of the best scopes in that price range that is not so picky on the head position before the scope gives you ''black''

My other advise to you is to search for a used Zeiss Varipoint in 1,1-4x with reticle 0 , sometimes you can find them on Egun ( German auction site ) for nice prices and thats one off the best scopes ever made in the 1-4 x range and very good on targets till 300 meter and very good on head position and very much field of view.

Iff you cannot find it go for the Meopta , the Eo tech is definitely not the way to go for IPSC Rifle

Your Topic says we have limited choice in Europe but on optics we have no limit since the best scopes are made in Europe , even a lot of the top US shooters use these scopes its all a matter of how much you want to spend on it,

And even with the best scope you will need to practice because thats the only way you will grow on IPSC Rifle no matter what scope you use

Edited September 12, 2013 by patrickbeijer

[michielker]

Hi!

Thanks for all your replies and advice. I have decided to go for the Meopta ZD 1-4x22. I figure I could always add a smaller holographic on a 45° mount in the future if I find it really necessary.

I'm awaiting a few offers from local suppliers. Are there any super (web)stores in Europe/UK that I should definatly check out for the best offer for this Scope?

Also, what mount should I get for my AR? I assume I will need one with a forward offset like the Burris PEPR, Larue SPR-E or Vortex Cantilever. The Larue seems to be the best quality mount but I have been unable to find them. So all suggestions for a good mount that I can purchase in Europe are very welcome!

Thanks for all the help.

Also, other webshops with rifle stuff are very welcome.

[caspian guy]

If you are going meopta, the 1x is good enough and the dot is bright enough that I am not sure you'd need a secondary dot. If you don't end up needing a secondary dot you'll have saved the weight and expense. If you decide you want one you can always add it later.

[michielker]

Double post! Sorry

Edited September 12, 2013 by michielker

[michielker]

I have just ordered the Meopta ZD 1-4/22mm! Unfortunetely they could not help me with the correct mount for an AR-15.

So please where can I find a decent offset mount? Which model?

- Vortex Cantilever

- Burris PEPR

- LaRue SPR-E

- ... ?

[patrickbeijer]

I would go for the Larue LT104 or the one that JP makes , but those are hard to get in Europe.

You can also buy the mounts we make in the Netherlands , but they are currently sold out .

I expect new ones in about 6 weeks ready and they cost € 165,-

http://www.3gun.nl/images/MJB302.JPG

[michielker]

Not too much response here.. but I had no luck finding a LaRue reseller in Europe. I tried some american friends but them seem to be afraid to post anything even remotely firearms related. I then found on on ebay, and it sed it would ship to belgium but then a few hours later the item was removed and reposted with shipping to US only. Since Jerry Miculek is using the Vortex Cantilever mount, I figure those can't be too bad. I have ordered that mount.

Patrick,

thanks for your reply, I wish you told me about that (your) shop earlier.

Edited September 15, 2013 by michielker

[fritzthemoose]

Hello! Long time lurker, new member!

I know there are a lot of similar threads, but I'll try to explain why I found it was necessary to start another one.

Introduction:

I'm 28 years old and live in Belgium, Europe and have been shooting IPSC with an STI Edge for 6 years now and usually end up with a top10, sometimes top5 place in national competition matches. I have competed in a few international matches (EEO 2009, Med-Cup in France, SVI Open in Germany).

Next to IPSC pistol, I would now like to start shooting IPSC rifle. After about 6 months waiting, I finally got my license for a .223 rifle and I've just bought an STI Competition rifle last week. Now I'm in the market for a decent optic for IPSC (dynamic shooting) and I figured the the 3-gun forum would be a good place to get some advice.

Important notice:

We have a very limited choice for firearms, parts, optics, mounts etc. Importing from the US is not that easy and can get expensive and be quite a hassle. So I'm very much limited to what I can find online in Europe. **update** I will be shooting in open!

Shooting ranges:

Most ranges in Belgium are 30 yard handgun ranges. For dynamic shooting (IPSC) with a rifle, the ranges are 55 yards and 110 yards. There are a few target-shooting (no dynamic) ranges that are up to 330 yards for occassional target shooting.

For optics my choices are limited to:

- Vortex Viper PST 1-4x24 30mm tube + Vortex cantilever QR mount : 750€

- Burris MTac 1-4x24 IR BCQ556 Combi with FastFire and PEPR mount : 800€

- EoTech XPS2-0 (including mount) : 520€

- AIMPOINT M4 (including mount) : 720€

- 3x magnifier with mount for Eotech/Aimponit: +- 550€

- NXS 1-4x24mm .250 MOA Compact (without mount!): +/- 1.400€

I would like to stick with one setup (not having to switch).

For IPSC most stages will be <50 yards with some shots up to 100 yards (every month). Longer shots will only be on international matches only, so perhaps one match a year with shots up to 300 yards. Occasional long range target practice will be up to 330 yards, maybe twice a year. So 90% of my shots will be short distance and aiming for an A-zone (so not too accurate but very fast).

Eotech/Aimpoint:

These will be best for fast target acquisition, but lack some magnifing for target shooting at longer distances. I have looked through both and prefer the Eotech. The batterylife issue and being less rugged are not an issue for my useage so I've pretty much ruled out the Aimpoint but kept it on the list for now.

A 3x magnifier seems like a good addition, but they are about the same price the viper scope or the eotech... how is this possible?

Vortex:

Seems like a popular choice and a very decent quality scope. More expensive then an Eotech and probably not that fast for fast close targets.

Burris MTAC Combo:

Seems like a great deal: a decent variable scope with good eye relief, a small holographic sight and the right type of mount for my rifle. Mounting the holographic sight on top of the scope seems a bit weird for me? I would prefer it to the side of the rifle (so you tilt the rifle instead). But again, getting the different mounts are expensive and hard to come by.

NXS:

Probably an amazing scope, but at 1.400€ without a mount (add 250€), this seems very expensive.

So please, give you me your advice/experiences but please keep in mind that I have a limited choice, won't ever shoot past 300yards and 90% of my shots will be under 100 yards.

Thank you so much!

buying an us optic in europe is pointless due to the fantasie price plus fairytale tax. if you want an us optic get it from the us. it will be half the price that way or close to half. if you want a high end optic more or less all of them are european origin anyway. as for reddots aimpoint is european and eotech is not that much more expensive here if you count shipping and customs.