Nimitz Posted August 23, 2015 Author Share Posted August 23, 2015 (edited) during last night's dry fire session I realized that my starting hand position for the surrender draw could be tweaked slightly to shave off some time .... I'd been wondering over the last month why I was finding it so difficult to get near a 1 sec or sub 1 second draw with my open gun when my training records clearly showed I was executing a sub 1 sec draw over the winter, long before my surgery layoff .... then it hit me, those draws were hands relaxed at sides & not surrender. So I tried a little experiment, switching the par time to 1 sec & trying a hands at sides draw. Lo & behold I was easily hitting the time .... and the more I thought about it the more obvious it was .... since the distance my strong hand has to travel in the surrender position is much longer then hands at sides it's not surprising it takes longer. Now, most people reading this are saying ... "duh, my surrender draw is always slower". Well for me, with my production setup, my surrender draw was actually always faster than hands at sides .... so I'm assuming that the reason it's not currently is just that I haven't been doing it for 3 years like with Production. Anyway, that got me looking at simply ways to shorten the distance my hands travel & I came up with a new position that was knocking .1 secs off when executed correctly. Got a bunch of dryfire to do to make it subconscious but well worth it .... the little things are always important .... Edited August 23, 2015 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted August 27, 2015 Author Share Posted August 27, 2015 Last couple of training sessions I've been focusing on the training methodology of executing drills first in accuracy mode, then speed mode & finally in shot calling mode. This method is starting to show measurable improvements as was evidenced buy yesterday's session. I started off with 10 reps of the Enos Transition Drill with 10" plates at 18 yds. This is just challenging enough that I must focus on every shot in order to go 9/9. At the shorter distances & or with the 12" plates I could do 9/9 with some slacking off of focus so I wanted to find a combo that forced me to work harder. Since this is drill has vision goals & not time goals & don't really worry about the timer except to spot check draw times. Even that is not really a big deal since there are no draws to an 18yd 10" in how I currently shoot the stages. I then switched to a 2-shot draw drill. For this drill I setup the plates #1 & #2 of 5 To Go. I think its important not to just do 1-shot draws because you tend to be faster when you brain knows that the only thing it has to do is one shot. When you have to continue to do things (like transition to the next target) your draw times are more realistic of what you'll do on a stage. So, I started off in accuracy mode where the only focus is to see what I need to see to hit each plate on one shot. Draw times averaged 1.68 secs, transition to the 2nd plate averaged .42 secs & total time ave was 2.05 secs. I then moved on to speed mode where the only goal was looking for massive speed gains. Draw times dropped into the 1.3s & total time around 1.65 secs. I then finished up in shot calling mode where the only goal is to simply call every shot. Draws were 1.55 secs, transitions were .38 secs & total times were 1.94 secs. So using this methodology in just this one session I was able to decrease my draw time by 8%. Tomorrow's session will be the 1-2-3-4-5 drills & more draw training. Dryfire training will shift this weekend into more movement training as well. I got notified that I'll get my TacSol barrel back on Tues so I plan to shoot it wed/Thurs/Fri in prep for my monthly local match on the 5th Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted September 4, 2015 Author Share Posted September 4, 2015 (edited) for various reasons (all unacceptable BTW) I was unable to train on Mon & Wed so I rearranged my schedule & got out today & will go tomorrow as well which hopefully will be good enough prep for Sat's match ... Got my TrailLite barrel back so today I setup 5 To Go to work on my new shooting order which I've only been doing in dryfire the last week. The sesson was 13 reps in accuracy mode, 14 reps in speed mode & 10 reps in shot calling mode and then half a dozen 1st shot, 2 shot reps. Even though I haven't been able to shoot my rimfire gun in over 2 weeks all the focused transition training I've been doing is starting to show results ... My cold, 5 string stage run to start the session was at 10.70 sec going 26/25. Ave time across all acuracy mode runs was 2.66 secs, first shot ave time was .69 secs. Ave time for speed mode runs was 1.83 secs. Ave 1st shot was .55 secs. Included in this was a 5/5 1.52 sec run followed immediately by a 5/5 1.62 sec run which was pretty amazing .... interesting to see where my current speed limit is when everything comes together ... Finished up in shot calling mode with an ave run time of 2.47 secs & a 1st shot ave of .68 secs. This represents an 8% decrease in time for jsut this one session. Whenever I train in this manner I continue to see pretty dramatic gains and this coupled with specific transition training vice just continually shoot the stages is really showing results. One of the things I started just prior to my surgery was keeping a monthly training events log on my wall. This is intended to be both a feedback mechanism & motivation tool to quickly show how I'm doing in meeting my established training goals. My major, macro goal is to have at least 30 training events /month ... The below pic is for Aug since this was the first full month back after surgery ... as you can see, I didn't quite hit my goal but I was also out sick & unable to do anything for 4 full days in Aug ... weather looks good for Saturday's 7-stage match & maybe we'll get a break on the temp as well .... Edited September 4, 2015 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeerBaron Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 during last night's dry fire session I realized that my starting hand position for the surrender draw could be tweaked slightly to shave off some time .... I'd been wondering over the last month why I was finding it so difficult to get near a 1 sec or sub 1 second draw with my open gun when my training records clearly showed I was executing a sub 1 sec draw over the winter, long before my surgery layoff .... then it hit me, those draws were hands relaxed at sides & not surrender. So I tried a little experiment, switching the par time to 1 sec & trying a hands at sides draw. Lo & behold I was easily hitting the time .... and the more I thought about it the more obvious it was .... since the distance my strong hand has to travel in the surrender position is much longer then hands at sides it's not surprising it takes longer. Now, most people reading this are saying ... "duh, my surrender draw is always slower". Well for me, with my production setup, my surrender draw was actually always faster than hands at sides .... so I'm assuming that the reason it's not currently is just that I haven't been doing it for 3 years like with Production. Anyway, that got me looking at simply ways to shorten the distance my hands travel & I came up with a new position that was knocking .1 secs off when executed correctly. Got a bunch of dryfire to do to make it subconscious but well worth it .... the little things are always important .... I would argue if your surrender draw in production was faster than hands by sides that actually your hands by sides draw was too slow. your surrender draw shouldn't be faster than hands by sides. They can get pretty close but if your maximising your HBS draw it should be faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1gcountry Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 I would imagine whatever gets practiced more would be faster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted September 4, 2015 Author Share Posted September 4, 2015 while that certainly is the likely answer I know a couple of good shooters who also had a faster surrender draw so there may be other factors at work here ....luckily I don't think it matters all that much as long as my surrender draw continues to improve. It would an interesting data point to know what the top shooter's surrender draw times typically are as a benchmark. We hear all the time about having a sub 1 sec HBS draw but I don't think I've ever heard the same about a surrender draw .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeerBaron Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 (edited) Have you seen the shiro shimada and some of the other japanese guys who shoot world level steel? Their surrender draw is bullshit fast. certainly sub 1 second. They gets kind of crouched in their middle section and wrists are just a bees dick above shoulder height. Gun is right in front and just barely retained in a race holster. it also looks like it's sticking out a fair way from the body. it looks like a really contorted position but my god he snatches that gun out fast! has to be sub 1 sec first shots on these runs! (he also does what I can only describe as some kind of gun to holster masturbation maneuver in the middle of these runs. not sure what it does or why but it seems to work. god bless him!) Edited September 7, 2015 by BeerBaron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeerBaron Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 here we go. Samejima running sub .90 surreder draws from a bucket holster. doesn't even need the crazy crouch action! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted September 7, 2015 Author Share Posted September 7, 2015 (edited) while that is certtainly an impressive draw there may be one or two things to temper what we see .... I knowsome will call this quibbling but that doesn't make it invalid ..... - in the 2013 S&H video his hand position may not be legal. It's hard to tell from the angle but it looks like his weak hand may be in front of his face where the rules call for hands above respective shoulders ... - in the Bladetech video while certainly sub one sec, he is only shooting single targets. And if you've done any serious draw training you know that it is far 'easier' to have a fast draw when you are only shooting single targets vice having to transition after the draw. I would like to see his draw times while shooting an entire stage since that's the only draw times that really matter. Also, this was not under match conditions which again can temper the results. A perfect example of this was today where I was practicing draws for Pendulum. When executing just one shot to the 12" 18yd plate I had a steady ave of 1.3 secs. When I added transitioning to targets 2&3 my draw times increased to 1.5 secs. Of course it's possible it's just me and everyone else doesn't expenience this but I believe when your brain knows it only has to do one thing vice several in succession the dynamic changes. Training certainly should have an effect on this but I'm not convinced it eliminates it completely .... I wonder why he didn't shoot in the 2014 WSSC? he finished 6th in 2013 ...? And I didn't see the other guy listed at all? All in all some pretty impressive shooting. I guess I need to review the SC rules as I always thought there was a holster 2" from the belt rule like USPSA? My current holster setup may not be giving me every advantage allowed by the rules which means it may ne reassessment time ... Edited September 7, 2015 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted September 7, 2015 Author Share Posted September 7, 2015 just got finished looking at the rules & for open centerfire it says the following : " ... and any safe holster/position are specifically allowed." So it looks like I'll be relooking at holster position .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted September 7, 2015 Author Share Posted September 7, 2015 (edited) Shot my monthly SC match on Saturday and while I won the open division I only managed 2nd in the overall combined standings with my RFPO. I actually won 5 of the 7 stages but on both Pendulum & Speed Option I only put together 3 solid runs each. Those 2 stages were enough to cost me the overall. however, there were several good things that happened, particularly considering I've only managed to shoot my RFPO gun 3 times since my last match in Aug. I got the gun back on Wed and got it zeroed and put about 100 rds thru it. I decided to shoot my new order for both Accelerator & 5 To Go even though I have been unable to shoot either of them live & only some limited dry fire. In spite of that I shot a new personal best on Accelerator in RFPO & was on pace to set a new personal best on 5 To Go as well when I had an issue with one of my contact lenses in the middle of a run ... the dot went from crystal clear to a blur as I transitioned to the 18 yd target & it took 3 shots to hit it, ending what otherwise was a good stage run .... however, the good news is that I'm definitely sticking with this new order for both stages. My shooting accuracy for RFPO was 187 rds for a 170 rd match or right at 90%. While this is a good 5% below where I should be it's not too surprising given the limited training over the last 3 weeks. In open my accuracy was only at 80% so lots more work to do here. Given that a m/u shot is probably costing me around .4- .5 secs that is costing me easily 7-8 secs of overall time in RFPO & double that in open. So given that my performance on pendulum cost me Saturday's match, today's session was going to be all pendulum. I've also made a switch in how I train where I'm now starting each session with my RFPO gun first. This better simulates a cold match start then shooting my open gun & then switching to the RFPO. First up was a 5 string match run. Time was 12.16 with an ave first shot of .89. I then moved into accuracy mode with an ave time of 2.89 & a 1st shot ave time of .85. I had 1 m/u shot across the 8 runs. I then moved into speed mode with an ave run time of 2.12 across the 13 runs & 1st shot ave of .65 secs. on the 7th rep I was on a 1.77 sec 4/4 pace when the last rd jammed before engaging the stop plate. The next rep was 2.24 sec 5/5 run, followed by 2.17 sec 5/5 run. After 2 more reps the next rep was a 2.00 5/5 run. I finished up in shot calling mode with an ave time of 2.55 secs. I then switched to my open gun to do some "draw +1 plate" practice. Ave draw time was1.57 secs. Switched to speed mode & single shot draws with an ave time of 1.26. Finished in shot calling mode with an ave of 1.54 secs. Wed I'll probably;y work on Speed option since I was having issues with that stage as well .... Edited September 7, 2015 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 I guess I need to review the SC rules as I always thought there was a holster 2" from the belt rule like USPSA? My current holster setup may not be giving me every advantage allowed by the rules which means it may ne reassessment time ... Interesting idea. It's my understand from discussions I've had with Troy is our steel challenge divisions follow USPSA divisions which, IMO, means we follow all rules as specified in the USPSA rule book. This would include the 2" limitation. This week I'll be setting up an Open gun built around a Glock 17 and even though we don't have to follow production equipment placement rules I still plan to set it up as a production legal rig. I figure learning one holster position is better than learning two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted September 7, 2015 Author Share Posted September 7, 2015 I thought that too until I read the rules ..... . For divisions like Production it specifically calls out you must follow IPSC rules but for open it specifically says you can do whatever you want ..... "Any safe holster/position are specifically authorized" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1gcountry Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 I thought you'd centerfire draws were like 0.69? I guess that was your rim fire draws, huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeerBaron Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 (edited) yeah my understanding is the divisions like production follow IPSC rules (maybe USPSA for you guys) but that holster rules in open are pretty loose. I agree about the hand placement thing. I'm sure he's had some RO's question the legality of it over the years. In fact if you look at more recent vids I believe his weak hand is not as far forward as it used to be. I just enjoy his little 'in and out' action on the holster. He seems so full of tension you'd wonder how he can shoot smoothly at all. Watch the 2010 japanese airsoft steel vid. he looks like he's about to melt down on the last stage! I've seen pics of a few guys shooting world steel and it seems to me some have holsters that well and truly breach the 2inch rule. though I admit it's basically impossible to confirm that just from pics/vids. as far as the single shot draw vs full stages vs match conditions etc I agree there probably is some difference between them. However I think for the better guys their practice draws are a lot closer to their match draws than for us lesser mortals. I imagine the same applies to drawing to multiple shots vs drawing to single shot. Though I'm sure you'd agree if he can draw from surrender to a plate in 0.72 then he can almost certainly crank sub 1 second draws in match conditions. In fact to shoot sub 2 second times on S+H I'd say sub 1 second draw is almost mandatory. Edited September 8, 2015 by BeerBaron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 I thought that too until I read the rules ..... . For divisions like Production it specifically calls out you must follow IPSC rules but for open it specifically says you can do whatever you want ..... "Any safe holster/position are specifically authorized" I guess I'd better spend some time reading the rulebook. It seems dumb to follow IPSC production rules but if we do does that mean we have minimum trigger pull weights and can load 15 rounds into the magazines? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 I agree about the hand placement thing. I'm sure he's had some RO's question the legality of it over the years. In fact if you look at more recent vids I believe his weak hand is not as far forward as it used to be. I just enjoy his little 'in and out' action on the holster. He seems so full of tension you'd wonder how he can shoot smoothly at all. Watch the 2010 japanese airsoft steel vid. he looks like he's about to melt down on the last stage! That guy certainly has an interesting shooting routine. He's fast so it obviously works for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 I looked in the rules and I found the references for USPSA/IPSC. I believe we must follow USPSA rules and not IPSC rules. A.1.1 Equipment requirements for the USPSA and IPSC, shall be governed by the respective rules and equipment criteria regarding firearm and holster configurations and rule interpretations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted September 8, 2015 Author Share Posted September 8, 2015 I thought you'd centerfire draws were like 0.69? I guess that was your rim fire draws, huh? lol ... yeah, if I had a .69 open centerfire draw I wouldn't be wallowing around in B class .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted September 8, 2015 Author Share Posted September 8, 2015 yeah my understanding is the divisions like production follow IPSC rules (maybe USPSA for you guys) but that holster rules in open are pretty loose. I agree about the hand placement thing. I'm sure he's had some RO's question the legality of it over the years. In fact if you look at more recent vids I believe his weak hand is not as far forward as it used to be. I just enjoy his little 'in and out' action on the holster. He seems so full of tension you'd wonder how he can shoot smoothly at all. Watch the 2010 japanese airsoft steel vid. he looks like he's about to melt down on the last stage! I've seen pics of a few guys shooting world steel and it seems to me some have holsters that well and truly breach the 2inch rule. though I admit it's basically impossible to confirm that just from pics/vids. as far as the single shot draw vs full stages vs match conditions etc I agree there probably is some difference between them. However I think for the better guys their practice draws are a lot closer to their match draws than for us lesser mortals. I imagine the same applies to drawing to multiple shots vs drawing to single shot. Though I'm sure you'd agree if he can draw from surrender to a plate in 0.72 then he can almost certainly crank sub 1 second draws in match conditions. In fact to shoot sub 2 second times on S+H I'd say sub 1 second draw is almost mandatory. yeah, he looks so high strung I don't know how he gets thru an entire match .... no doubt he has a ligit sub one second surrender draw. Like with USPSA, it's distance dependent too so while the top shooters are doing 1 sec or less on S&H they are probably not doing that on Pendulum, Outer Limits & maybe Speed option ... All in all, it's good to see where the current limit is and that sub 1 sec is doable .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted September 8, 2015 Author Share Posted September 8, 2015 I looked in the rules and I found the references for USPSA/IPSC. I believe we must follow USPSA rules and not IPSC rules. A.1.1 Equipment requirements for the USPSA and IPSC, shall begoverned by the respective rules and equipment criteriaregarding firearm and holster configurations and ruleinterpretations. that seems to contradict the previous rule which says that "Any safe holster/position is specifically authorized" in open ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1gcountry Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 I thought you'd centerfire draws were like 0.69? I guess that was your rim fire draws, huh?lol ... yeah, if I had a .69 open centerfire draw I wouldn't be wallowing around in B class .... Hah, yeah I guess. I thought you were a gm with that. Makes me feel a little better about my 1.4 draws Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 that seems to contradict the previous rule which says that "Any safe holster/position is specifically authorized" in open ... Rule Number? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punished Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 yeah, he looks so high strung I don't know how he gets thru an entire match ....no doubt he has a ligit sub one second surrender draw. Like with USPSA, it's distance dependent too so while the top shooters are doing 1 sec or less on S&H they are probably not doing that on Pendulum, Outer Limits & maybe Speed option ... All in all, it's good to see where the current limit is and that sub 1 sec is doable .... It appears you can cut some time as well if you wear your belt/pants up above your belly button. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted September 9, 2015 Author Share Posted September 9, 2015 that seems to contradict the previous rule which says that "Any safe holster/position is specifically authorized" in open ...Rule Number? Appendix A, 3.1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now