Shotgun & Rifle Hi Capacity Magazine Restrictions

[Jesse Tischauser]

I used to keep a couple of Benelli M1's around setup with a 12 round tube a bolt cut for ghost loading and a welded lifter. I would let the newbs use them that showed up with an old pump gun for their first match. I'd have them load them all the way up to 14 so they had to mess less with loading the shotgun for their first match. They had to shoot in open division which is a little of a disadvantage but it was always more fun shooting than loading. They never really understand or care how the finish at the first match or three.

The shotgun loading is probably the thing that is the most foreign and least fun thing at your first match. Having fun is what gets shooter to come back.

Edited August 2, 2013 by Jesse Tischauser

[ClutchUSMC]

A pump shotgun isn't really a handicap at that level. Pat Kelley was 14th overall this last weekend at the Nordic match shooting a pump. Heck a normal guy like me was 33rd overall. That means I beat about 100 guys with open or semiauto guns. In a shotgun only match.

I you can't load 8 rounds in 5sec or so it won't matter that you have to pump the gun anyway.

[ClutchUSMC]

That guy that we're talking about creating an entier class to cater to would still get junked by JT even if they shot the same guns.

[EaZeNuTZ33]

That guy that we're talking about creating an entier class to cater to would still get junked by JT even if they shot the same guns.

but if Daniel Horner and I both had to shoot single shot rifles and black powder pistols.......are you saying he would still beat me by 40-50%??? Cause me thinks your are 100% correct sir!

[Akkid17]

This topic is hilarious, tons of people all saying 'I don't care I can run whatever... But... I don't know why we should' sounds like you care. If no one else will say it, I will. I would be pissed if tac got neutered, I don't shoot it that often I'm one of the guys that Pat was talking about that likes to shoot our version of limited, production, up here. But when I do shoot it and 10 shot tubes are perfect especially with mainly 8-9 shot arrays then reloading to get another array or slug shot or two and being able to pick and choose 20-48 rd mags is nice to tailor to a stage (I will concede the 60 and 100rd surefires are probably a little much) and 140mm mags seem to fit most stages with only needing one mag change (two if their are some makeups/screwups). I believe the tac division is misnamed, its not tactical, as many people have said it is no longer the "tactical" community driving this sport/division there are more and more hobbyists/enthusiasts participating, to be honest I thought this division name was weird since I started shooting 3-gun it doesn't fit with what the division actually is now, heavy metal is probably more suited to the name than tac is . Furthermore; if I were told that open is the only place I can have some freedom in gear whoring it would be aggrevating. I wish I could make a comparison chart to show how absurd further changing tac would be. Open and tac are really far apart already with respect to gear and heavy/heavy optics are in their own arena and seem appropriately different to not need any alterations. The only one I can see that could use a revamp is limited, this seems like a kid brother to tac where everything is the same but the optic magnification. How is that a different division? In a match that's quite close it can actually be an advantage because of the speed of target aquisition.

This topic brought a lot of memories back from when I started shooting 3-gun. I'm just getting into my 3rd year and I look back and think about how I felt about the gear and divisions and how intimidating it was to get into. I had a cylander bore 870, 4" 1911 and a barebones iron sighted AR. I was directly competing with guys using way better gear and it was frustrating so I pretty much immediately bought an 1100 with an extension tube, a leupold scope and an fnx-40 (not the wisest decision I've ever made) so I wouldn't feel so hindered. I knew I wasn't in the same league as the other more experienced shooters before I bought the gear but I didn't like the percieved handicap of the gear since all we had going was tac and open. When we started having production division I was stoked I finally felt like I actually had a division where I could be competitive (even with much better shooters) so I brought the 870 back out along with the 1911 and had a great time. I wish that division would have been around when I first started showing up it would have eased the frustration and I probably would have been more likely to be more thoughtful and intentional in my future gear and division choices.

I'm sure there is a little rambling in there, but hopefully the intent gets through.

[JoeBoboutfitters]

A pump shotgun isn't really a handicap at that level. Pat Kelley was 14th overall this last weekend at the Nordic match shooting a pump. Heck a normal guy like me was 33rd overall. That means I beat about 100 guys with open or semiauto guns. In a shotgun only match.

I you can't load 8 rounds in 5sec or so it won't matter that you have to pump the gun anyway.

Lets be honest....Pat is a freak of nature. He pumps like hes been shooting pro for a few decades.

I dont see pump as a big disadvantage in a typical match.

Id like to see limited with some restrictions of some type. Its an odd, slightly neutured TO right now. Its not much disadvantage at all, really. Mag caps on rifles souldnt change much in most matches though.

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[Alaskapopo]

A pump shotgun isn't really a handicap at that level. Pat Kelley was 14th overall this last weekend at the Nordic match shooting a pump. Heck a normal guy like me was 33rd overall. That means I beat about 100 guys with open or semiauto guns. In a shotgun only match.

I you can't load 8 rounds in 5sec or so it won't matter that you have to pump the gun anyway.

Lets be honest....Pat is a freak of nature. He pumps like hes been shooting pro for a few decades.

I dont see pump as a big disadvantage in a typical match.

Id like to see limited with some restrictions of some type. Its an odd, slightly neutured TO right now. Its not much disadvantage at all, really. Mag caps on rifles souldnt change much in most matches though.

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I have done timed runs comparing my Benelli M2 to my 870 and there is a difference.

Pat

[Travtastik]

I am new to 3gun, and I don't like the idea of limiting mags in TO. Giving I have only shot 5 local matches, but I have never left a matching think I would have done better with 60 rounds in my AR instead of 30. I have honestly never thought about running or needing a higher capacity mag to compete. I don't think it levels things out at all. I have never shoot a major so I guess my view could change after I go to rockcastle.

The game is still going to be a arms race even if the mag capacity is limited. My stock m&p15 is not on the same level as a JP rifle because we both have 30 round mags. A 930 is not on the same level as one of Tarans shotguns just because they both hold 8+1. So I don't see where people get that it makes the playing field fair. I would be more willing to shell out money for a larger mag if I thought it would help then a new gun.

I am all for making these changes in limited. It already has the name. We can limit all the mags and gear there and make it a totally different option from TO not just a scope. It would be great for people who want to get their feet wet and the guys wanting more of a challenge would have it.

[JoeBoboutfitters]

I have done timed runs comparing my Benelli M2 to my 870 and there is a difference.

Pat

Sure. Comparing cyclic rate of a pump versus a semi at a static target array will always yield the semi auto as the victor. However, a typical match has movement and loading elements too. 870s arent exactly the best to load hence why they're not big on the 3gun circuit.

IMO, it seems that he who loads his shotgun the fastest on each stage wins the stage and possibly the match. Hence why there is so much innovation and such a race to find the perfect loading equipment and system. You dont see the same equipment race on pmag or glock mag retention.

Even in a shotgun-only match like the Nordic competitions the top pump shooters didnt give up a whole lot to the tactical shooters. And of course there is still an equipment race on who can modify their supernova the best to pump and load faster.

Around here at least, it seems like most "new" shooters may have an 870 at home but do not feel confident enough with it to shoot in a match. Thus theyll spend the 6-1400 to get into a semi auto shotgun and then modify it. Nobody likes to lose, regardless of skill level.

If limited only allowed pumps id still shoot it but I think even more would avoid it. I feel it would be due to lack of confidence with a pump and wanting to avoid dropping the coin on an additional competition-worthy pump. Personally, I dont mind shooting a pump but i know i should typically shoot faster with a semi. I still feel limited doesnt have enough class differentiation from tacops though.

[Alaskapopo]

I have done timed runs comparing my Benelli M2 to my 870 and there is a difference.

Pat

Sure. Comparing cyclic rate of a pump versus a semi at a static target array will always yield the semi auto as the victor. However, a typical match has movement and loading elements too. 870s arent exactly the best to load hence why they're not big on the 3gun circuit.

IMO, it seems that he who loads his shotgun the fastest on each stage wins the stage and possibly the match. Hence why there is so much innovation and such a race to find the perfect loading equipment and system. You dont see the same equipment race on pmag or glock mag retention.

Even in a shotgun-only match like the Nordic competitions the top pump shooters didnt give up a whole lot to the tactical shooters. And of course there is still an equipment race on who can modify their supernova the best to pump and load faster.

Around here at least, it seems like most "new" shooters may have an 870 at home but do not feel confident enough with it to shoot in a match. Thus theyll spend the 6-1400 to get into a semi auto shotgun and then modify it. Nobody likes to lose, regardless of skill level.

If limited only allowed pumps id still shoot it but I think even more would avoid it. I feel it would be due to lack of confidence with a pump and wanting to avoid dropping the coin on an additional competition-worthy pump. Personally, I dont mind shooting a pump but i know i should typically shoot faster with a semi. I still feel limited doesnt have enough class differentiation from tacops though.

The point is yes having a semi auto is an advantage. No way around that and often the difference between first and 2nd place on a stage is decided in terms of seconds. Up here we have done that to limited only allow pumps down load the pistols to 10+1 and same rules on the rifle except 30 round mags or less and it has gotten way more popular than limited used to be it often rivals tac optics at our state level matches.

Pat

Edited August 6, 2013 by Alaskapopo

[Akkid17]

It looks like most people don't like the idea of altering capacity for tac optics (terribly named division) but are in favor of altering the equipment and/or capacity for limited (also a terribly named division) to make it a more stand alone division that is actually different than tac. I hope that if something like this were to occur it would be done so with the hopes that it would increase participation by current shooters as well as encourage new people to join in the fun.

I like being able to shoot in several different divisions and I like to be able to use different gear. It seems like right now that limited is just tac jr and worthless as far as I see it and I think that participation at most matches reflects that. But, like some people have said about revolver and also I've heard said about limited in 3-gun, if its going to die, let it die. Is that the right way to go? Would it be better to make some changes to the division to possibly generate more interest? Would it help if there were better sponsor support and prize tables for the division? I don't know but I would like to see something happen.

Just my thoughts

[JoeBoboutfitters]

It looks like most people don't like the idea of altering capacity for tac optics (terribly named division) but are in favor of altering the equipment and/or capacity for limited (also a terribly named division) to make it a more stand alone division that is actually different than tac. I hope that if something like this were to occur it would be done so with the hopes that it would increase participation by current shooters as well as encourage new people to join in the fun.

I like being able to shoot in several different divisions and I like to be able to use different gear. It seems like right now that limited is just tac jr and worthless as far as I see it and I think that participation at most matches reflects that. But, like some people have said about revolver and also I've heard said about limited in 3-gun, if its going to die, let it die. Is that the right way to go? Would it be better to make some changes to the division to possibly generate more interest? Would it help if there were better sponsor support and prize tables for the division? I don't know but I would like to see something happen.

Just my thoughts

Prizes typically arent as good for anyone beyond the first couple places in less popular divisions, from what ive seen. People gravitate to the more popular gear and bigger prizes.

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[barrysuperhawk]

<sub>I personally love the run-what-you-brung nature of 3 gun matches in general. Unfortunately, a lot of times when someone comes up with a cool new idea and makes it work, the first reaction of a lot of people is to ban or restrict that idea. Any rule that is designed to restrict a single item of kit is a bad rule and needs to be re-thought.

Being a Heavy Metal competitor, I find myself overly sensitive about rule changes [red dots in HM anyone?] but I think my theory about HM works when you apply it to other classes. You see, HM is essentially a Spec- class where the rules are engineered to put everyone on as close to a level playing field as possible. Single-stack rules 1911's, 8 round pumps with no reduced recoil shells, and 20 round max .308 rifles with irons. There's still variation, but it is small. Yeah, it suffers from low turnout, but when Pat or Bryan, or Jomar whoop me, I know it was because they were better shooters, not because of superior equipment. Realistically, you could probably randomly re-assign guns between the competitors in HM and not affect the outcome too much.

So, why am I going on about HM in a TO thread? Because the theory works for TO also. I think people are hung up on names of the classes, so I will describe what I an thinking, and y'all can name it what you want.

There should be a spec-class for the .223/9mm/semi-auto crowd, call it sportsman or beginner.
Rifle:
30 rounds in the rifle [not 30+1, and coupled mags count as one] no base pads other than the original mag-puls no forward grips, barricade sharks or rail add-ons bigger than grip panels
Irons or no magnification optics
PCC's go here
Pistol:
Production legal except retention holsters and factory issued long sides are allowed
Shotgun:
8+1 round .
Maybe add a gear test like: All gear must pass the roll-test [lay on ground, roll over like the dog does it, nothing falls out.]

Then there should be a gamer class for the same basic guns, that should resemble what most places run as TO right now, call it Tacticool OMG:
1 optic on rifle, 60 rounds in a mag or coupled pair,
Limited legal pistol
10+1 shotgun

If someone wants to run a "heavy gun" in one of those classes, no need to make a new class, just give them a benefit like say, one hit neutralization in A, B & C instead of just A zones on paper. 308 and 45 already make their benefits known on steel If you really have a problem with mono-podding, design the stage so it gives no advantage, or is impractical.

The only hairy part is deciding on names, because if you call them by the established names, people will make the mistake, honestly or not, and show up with the wrong gear.</sub>

Edited August 7, 2013 by barrysuperhawk

[Akkid17]

Yes! New name is: Tacticool OMG! With the caps and the exclamation point.

[Therealkoop]

I would be indifferent if they limited capacity in Tac Ops. I think it gives people options for how they approach a course but I dont see it as an incredible benefit under MOST circumstances. Most of the time it seems like my shotgun is limited to 8 anyway so I couldnt see much difference if rifles/pistols were limited to 30/15. It would be arbitrary.