223 - Am I sizing enough?

[famous187]

So, I have been reloading pistol calibers for the last couple years and decided to take the rifle plunge. Starting out with 223 and I'm getting the brass prepped while I try to find some powder , primers , and bullets. Anyways, I bought a set of the Redding 223 dies (Full Length) and read online that I would need to screw the die down until it touches the shell plate and probably a little lower. I did that and resized about 150 cases. At this time I did NOT have a case gage. Well, after receiving my Wilson case gage I have found all the cases I resized are well below the MINIMUM case headspace, indicating that I have pushed the shoulder back too far (right??).

So I start playing with getting the die set correctly with the Wilson gage. I get it set so that the brass falls within the high and low step of the gage. In order to do this I had to back the die off the shell plate to the point where it is no longer making contact with the plate. I did not think this would work as the die clearly can't size all the way to the base of the brass but, the empty brass will chamber and extract in my AR just fine.

So here are my questions:

01. I'm assuming the brass that I have resized with the neck pushed back too far is no good now right?

02. Is it a big deal that the die is not touching the shell plate as long as the brass gages fine and chambers in my gun?

Thanks

[mlmiller1]

I would load a few of the short ones and see if they work. If they fire, the shoulder will blow back out to where they can be loaded right.

If the brass runs in your gun, it doesn't matter where the dies are set.

I would not load many or prep many without loading a few and seeing if I had any problems.

You haven't mentioned how you are trimming to length.

[mlmiller1]

Oops double tap.

Edited June 1, 2013 by mlmiller1

[tohm]

The first question is it depends how much shorter, you can try to run a couple and see if they will complete a cycle. I did the same had some that were not too far under and they worked okay.

Is the Redding a small base die ( it will be ~ .003 smaller in diameter) typically runs all your dimensions down to minimums so you will not have any feeding issues? That is what most but not all 3 Gun type AR reloaders suggest to use. If the die does not contact the shell plate then it is not sizing as low as it can (if it works in your rifle then fine).

I would recommend getting a chamber gauge from JP or EGW (I bought EGW from Dillon) they will give you a whole lot more feedback (not go no-go like the wilson) to make sure your rounds will chamber. I had rounds that checked okay in the Wilson and gave me fits in my rifle. The EGW let me chase down the rest of my reloading problems.

With all that said i just used the Wilson gauge when I started reloading 223 for my Rock River and shot about 5000 rounds through it, zero problems (I didn't need to make sure everything was at the minimum it would run anything you dropped in). Then when i got my Stag it gave me fits with the same ammo that my Rock River had no issues with. If your gun likes it run it, and don't expect all guns to like the same ammo.

Just my personal experience and outlook.

[anachronism]

I'm a slob. Since I run a number of 223s, I run my sizing die down to touch the shellholder, then back it back off 1/8th turn or less so it's not touching anymore. Then I lower the ram and set a flat washer on it and run the ram up again so that the washer is between the shellholder and die, and the ram is exerting pressure on the die. Then I tighten the lock ring and call it good. Cases sized thusly feed in chamber in every 223 I've tried them in so far.

Why the washer? 7/8-14 threads are usually a bit loose, and the washer pushes the die upwards slightly and squares it to the threads in the press. I've gotten better alignment between the die & shellholder with this method. It is necessary to remove the die from the press with a wrench the first time, but the die settings repeat perfectly from that point on, no matter how many times I change dies in the press. Sometimes the act of tightening the locking ring nudges the die out of alignment slightly unless I use this method.

[shopgun]

So, I have been reloading pistol calibers for the last couple years and decided to take the rifle plunge. Starting out with 223 and I'm getting the brass prepped while I try to find some powder , primers , and bullets. Anyways, I bought a set of the Redding 223 dies (Full Length) and read online that I would need to screw the die down until it touches the shell plate and probably a little lower. I did that and resized about 150 cases. At this time I did NOT have a case gage. Well, after receiving my Wilson case gage I have found all the cases I resized are well below the MINIMUM case headspace, indicating that I have pushed the shoulder back too far (right??).

So I start playing with getting the die set correctly with the Wilson gage. I get it set so that the brass falls within the high and low step of the gage. In order to do this I had to back the die off the shell plate to the point where it is no longer making contact with the plate. I did not think this would work as the die clearly can't size all the way to the base of the brass but, the empty brass will chamber and extract in my AR just fine.

So here are my questions:

01. I'm assuming the brass that I have resized with the neck pushed back too far is no good now right?

02. Is it a big deal that the die is not touching the shell plate as long as the brass gages fine and chambers in my gun?

Thanks

If you are loading on a Dillon, you do not want the die touching the shellplate. Did that the first time I loaded .223 on my 550 and set the shoulder back too far. The AR extractor will NOT hold the round against the bolt face to fire. You must use a guage. Pulling 300 rounds and trashing the cases taught me that lesson.

[mlmiller1]

On my dillon 650 with Lee Dies, I had to grind a little off the bottom of the die to get it to size down enough for consistent reliability. Didn't take much, I did it with a belt sander. Still have the die firmly touching the shell plate, though. The handle cams over just like with my pistol calibers.

[tohm]

I load 223 on a Dillon 550 and use the Dillon carbide sizing die. I firmly contact the shell plate to bump the shoulder to get it at the nominal distance (flush with bottom of notch) on my Wilson gauge.

[CocoBolo]

With small base dies I run it down till it touches the ram then give it another quarter turn, you can feel the press cam over. In the wilson gauge if any rim at all sticks up above the center valley I toss it as bad. If i see a slight bit of inset GREAT Perfect. I drop check after full sizeing and after loading.

My guns have the Wylde chamber, they won't eject if they stick up at all.

When you get your bullets, load up some dummies and make sure they will dry cycle thru the gun!

I had a redding die, nothing I loaded with it worked, that was after the Lee Die disaster, well I loaded a couple batches but kept getting stuck cases, broke the stem etc. The RCBS AR Series Small base I have now work great. Have not had anything close to a stuck case, in fact they size eazier than the 9 mm I load. I took a grinder to the lee die shortened it, keep it in a single stage press and use it on the drop check failures, it fixes most of them.

[goat68]

If you are using fired brass, are you trimming it? The case will grow less the more times you fire it but they need to be trimmed before you size.

[wgj3]

Nope, trim after size.

[CocoBolo]

Max length is 1.760 trim to 1.750. I find it takes less time to trim than to measure, and same goes for swagging, faster do than check. You also need to chamfer the inside of the neck to keep from cutting the jacket while seating. The outside of the neck should also be deburred, you can do this by throwing just the brass in the tumbler but a small amount so they lay down.

The difference between a 4" group and a 1" group could be a .5gr of powder, finding the sweet spot for your rifle means loading steps in the powder range and shooting groups to find the charge that works best or dumb luck.

[famous187]

Thanks for all the help!

To answer some questions:

I'm reloading on a 550b

Reloading for a Bushmaster 5.56mm AR and will soon have a BCM 5.56mm AR

I will be trimming with a WFT in a drill

Trimming / deburring with a handheld Hornady tool

Primer pocket reaming with a handheld Hornady tool

My goal is to make some reliable / some-what accurate blasting ammo for matches in my area, nothing too serious.

I haven't tried to size anymore brass since the post. I still haven't been able to find the powder or bullets that I want to use. My plan now is to take the advice above and hold off on sizing anymore. I have 10 cases sized to where they check out OK in the Wilson gage (in between the high and low step) , once I get the components I want I will load up these 10 cases with a minimum load and make sure they function in my rifle.

I will also invest in the EGW chamber gauge.

Some more questions:

Should I buy the 5.56 or 223 EGW chamber gauge?

I hear that alot of people setup there FL sizing die to size until the case is just barely below the "low" step on the case gauge. Is this better than having the case sit in between the low and high step?

I will be reloading alot of different headstamps , should this factor into how I setup the sizing die? I would rather have a "universal" setup than having to adjust for each different headstamp.

Thanks again

Edited June 10, 2013 by famous187

[tohm]

I would set it up no higher than the lower step. I run just a tad under that. I am sure you will get more opinions!

I would get the 223 chamber gauge, in case you ever buy or share a round with someone. They will are at the bottom of SAMMI specs (small).

Good luck

[1ltrng3bn]

you might consider getting a sinclair bump insert. thia will allow you to know exactly how much you are bumping the case sholder back. I've had cases that I know were set-back .003 look high on the wilson case gage. Don't get me wrong, I still use wilson to check loaded rounds,I use sinclair for set-up-.003-.005 ,you can't measure w/o bump gage & calipers

[Boxer1]

I use one of the EGW 7 round checkers and it works great for checking my match ammo. Also be careful not to bump that neck back so much as to cause head spacing issues.

[Franco79]

I was having the same issue when I took the rifle plunge. I was bumping the shoulders back within spec of the Dillon case gauge and after 10 rounds I decided to load them up. Well, this was the first time I had to use the forward assist on the rifle to seat a round in the chamber, extracting it was a bitch as well. So I bumped the neck down another 2-3 thousandths and it worked flawlessly. Sometimes the case gauges are not always right. But if it works in your chamber, go with it.