Of class, foreign shooters, and USPSA Nationals

[RIIID]

It is very simple, to win the National TITLE you must be a US citizen or hold a green card. To win the CLASS title in Division you must be a US citizen or hold a green card. I know of several people who got second place in class to a non citizen or no trophy for placing fourth because of non citizens. It's the US Nationals people only US citizens or green card holders should recieve titles or trophies. Just my opinion.

Rich

[Neil Beverley]

It is very simple, to win the National TITLE you must be a US citizen or hold a green card. To win the CLASS title in Division you must be a US citizen or hold a green card. I know of several people who got second place in class to a non citizen or no trophy for placing fourth because of non citizens. It's the US Nationals people only US citizens or green card holders should recieve titles or trophies. Just my opinion.

Rich

Rich

I'm afraid we are going to have to disagree on this one.

In June this year we held the British Open Shotgun Championships, a Level III IPSC match.

Kurt Miller from the US shot the match and came first in Standard Division. I was second. Kurt won because he was the better shooter. I personally don't want to, and will not, call myself the winner of the British Open because I'm British and Kurt isn't, when I know I was fairly beaten by someone who shot better than I did.

There is never any shame in being beaten by a better shooter.

I guess it could be said that I'm the British Champion of the division but Kurt is very definitely the British Open Champion and deservedly so.

[DogmaDog]

I'm with Vince...Out with xenophobia!

I'd much rather feel that I'm part of an international fraternity of shooters; that if I found myself travelling to a foreign country and had the opportunity, I could enter an IPSC match and be welcomed by the local populace, and that I would be excited to have visitors from far away who felt it was worth the effort to travel all the way here to shoot in a match with me.

I think its reasonable to require that the US Champion be a member of USPSA, but I see no reason that should be tied to a Green Card or US Citizenship. I'd like to think foreign shooters would want to visit here, or even immigrate here because we have th best available shooting facilities and equipment, and the best shooters anywhere, but being the best shooter implies being the best sportsman, as well. All those US shooters who got second place didn't get second place "because of non-citizens"...they got second place because some other guy shot better than they did.

I think incorporating match performance into classification would solve a lot of the perceived problems with sandbagging--kick butt at a major match, and you move up in class. You'll have to kick just that much more butt next year in order to win a prize as shiny as the one you got this year.

DogmaDog

[Jim Norman]

First off, the Lewis System is shooter welfare, you may as well hold a drawing  for prizes. We have a classification system. It has flaws. Let's fix the flaws, not scrap the system.

Require that shooters have at least 4 valid classifiers shot in the last 12-18 months. Note the word VALID. If you are a C shooter and you shoot a non-acceptable score then you are not really trying. This especially applies to those that come out as a C and win with a score that eclipses High B. THis rule should apply across the board.

OR

Make the Nationals an INSTANT Classifer. SHoot the match and if you are shooting above your class, assuming that your class has the requisit number of GM's you move up right then and there. There are details that would need to be worked out to do this, but it could be done.

Personally, I like the first solution. It works pretty much across the board for all, whether a US natinoal or a foreign shooter. Now, if you have not shot a classifier in the last 12-18 motnths, you revert temporarily to U. You would need to shoot two valid classifers and then you would be reinstated at your now current rating.

Jim Norman

Require that shooters have at least 4 valid classifiers shot in the last 12-18 months. Note the word VALID. If you are a C shooter and you shoot a non-acceptable score then you are not really trying. This especially applies to those that come out as a C and win with a score that eclipses High B. THis rule should apply across the board.

How would you know that a classifier score is valid? If a shooter's entire set of classifiers in the last 12-18 months are "C" scores, then he goes to the Nationals as a "C" class shooter and shoot a "B" class score, the "validity" of the shooter's classification score history is discovered after the fact. Isn't that what we have going now?

Make the Nationals an INSTANT Classifer. SHoot the match and if you are shooting above your class, assumming that your class has the requisit number of GM's you move up right then and there. There are details that would need to be worked out to do this, but it could be done.

I don't see where this is functionally any different than the Lewis Scoring Method. What would be different in using this method or the Lewis Scoring Method is that USPSA moves class winners at the Nationals up in class. One of these alternative methods could conceivably have a "C" class shooter who would otherwise win his class, not do so due to the arbitrary cutoff at 75%. Instead, a different "C" class shooter with a lower score (under 75%) would be the one moved up to "B" class by USPSA. Now you have what you consider the "sandbagger" remaining in "C" class. Now the game will be to manipulate your score so that you can come as close to 75% without going over. A difficult task, in deed, but I'm sure someone will try to work it to their advantage.

Two items here.

First, you are correct, a real bagger can manipulate his scores, but if he has to maintain that average and have reasonably current classifiers, it will go a long way towards eliminating the shooter that has a 3-4 year old classification that is obviously way below his current level.

As to the Instant Classification being similar to the Lewis System, I agree to a point. This would have to be worked out so as to avoid the unintended consequences you point out. It should apply where a shooter shoots at the Nationals a certain amount above his class. If you study the results you will see that the majority of shooters generally finish below their classification percentage. When a shooter shows up at the Nats with a 45% classification percentage and then shoots a 70% match there is something wrong. He is obviously not a low C, but rather a really high "B" or even an "A" shooter. This is what we are looking at solving.

And yes, this is more likely to apply to a foreign based shooter than to a US based shooter since the foreign based shooter may not actively pursue maintaining a current USPSA Classification. I would like to see some method of encouraging the foreign-based shooter to maintain his USPSA Classification at a level that represents his current level of proficiency.

And to all, please note that I am saying FOREIGN BASED, not FOREIGN. This applies equally to all that are simply not in the US on a full time basis. US Citizens that are working or stationed overseas as well as those that are not US citizens.

Jim Norman

[kdj]

It's the US Nationals people only US citizens or green card holders should recieve titles or trophies. Just my opinion.

Rich

Wouldn't it be a terrible shame if people like Eric Grauffel stopped coming to the US Nationals because they were effectively being told they weren't wanted?

Kevin

[Skywalker]

Neil,

I guess RIIID and you might be discussing two different issues.

If overall placement and prizes are concerned, I'm totally with you: the better shooter ranks higher and gets the prize, no matter if foreign, in an open match where he proved better (and kudos to you for your brave choice ).

If US champion, or US Class champion title is concerned, I'm with RIIID: the first US competitor in that DIvision/Class shall be the US champion, because he proved to be the best US shooter. The nationals are held to award national titles, even if attended by foreign competitors.

BTW, I'd get rid of all the green card or citizenship proposals. The IPSC region you're member of is where you can legally compete for national titles, as per chapter 6.5 of the IPSC rulebook.

Now, the discussion can drift to sandbagging and/or grandbagging, and methods to prevent it, but I'd say that the problem is not foreign competitors-related only. It exists in every country, and is ingrained to the fact there are some less-than-sportsmanlike competitors that should look at themselves in the mirror whenever they can get away with their behaviour...

[bgary]

It is only USPSA that requires a competitor to hold a specific Regional (USPSA) membership in order to participate in its Level II and III matches, which includes the USPSA Nationals. I don't believe any of the other Regions do this.

Actually, to shoot a major USPSA match, a shooter must be a member of USPSA or another IPSC region

So, a shooter from ____ can shoot a major, but will shoot as Unclassified unless they have *also* joined USPSA, and shot the requisite number of USPSA classifiers to earn a classification.

Bruce

[Skywalker]

It is only USPSA that requires a competitor to hold a specific Regional (USPSA) membership in order to participate in its Level II and III matches, which includes the USPSA Nationals. I don't believe any of the other Regions do this.

Actually, to shoot a major USPSA match, a shooter must be a member of USPSA or another IPSC region

Same here in Italy.

No regional membership of any kind, no Italian League and Level III matches.

[omnia1911]

It is only USPSA that requires a competitor to hold a specific Regional (USPSA) membership in order to participate in its Level II and III matches, which includes the USPSA Nationals. I don't believe any of the other Regions do this.

Actually, to shoot a major USPSA match, a shooter must be a member of USPSA or another IPSC region

So, a shooter from ____ can shoot a major, but will shoot as Unclassified unless they have *also* joined USPSA, and shot the requisite number of USPSA classifiers to earn a classification.

Bruce

US Appendix A1 line 2 gives no either/or, and says nothing about shooting Unclassified. It only says that you must be a USPSA member. I'm aware that the IPSC Appendix A1 line 2 says that a shooter must be a member of an IPSC Region.

I'm going by what the rule book says, not what it meant to say. I'll take your word on this Bruce.

I think that line 2 in Appendix A would have been the same for both IPSC and USPSA if what you say is true.

[bgary]

I'm with Vince...Out with xenophobia!

I agree.

For me, this issue is not about foregn shooters vs. US shooters.

It is about prize tables, and the differing motivation they provide for sandbaggers vs... hmm, lets call them honest shooters, although I recognize that is a loaded term.

Shooter "A" is a typical shooter, earnestly trying to improve in the sport. He or she has lots of classifiers on file, and they generally reflect his/her current level of ability.

Shooter "B" is interested in prize tables. More to the point, this shooter only goes to matches where he/she can "get something", and works to ensure that his/her classifier average is artificially low, so as to best improve his/her chances of "getting something".

In a typical USPSA Nationals, shooter "A" will be thrilled if he/she shoots a match score that matches his/her classification average. On the other hand, shooter "A" is highly likely to finish WAY behind shooter "B", who somehow manages to shoot a match score much-much-much higher than his/her average... in fact, usually well into the class above, if not further. As others have noted, it is not unusual to see that the C-class winner at the USPSA Nationals has a high-B... or even high-A class score.

Shooter "B" may or may not be a foreign shooter. It happens that there are some foreign shooters who have raised this to an artform, and can generally be found at the top of the lower-class rankings at prize-table matches in a frequency that would seem to belie random chance or coincidence... but the problem is certainly not a "foreign shooter" problem. I could point you to shooters... hell, I could point you to whole *clubs* in Area-1, that have what I consider to be an inordinate level of commitment to "managing classifiers" so as to "get something".

There are a spectrum of possible solutions to this problem:

-- change the classification system so that shooters with "stale classifications" are not eligible for prizes (except, perhaps, overall placement prizes)

-- change the classification system in some other way so that shooters have an incentive to keep their classification current, rather than artificially hold it down.

-- get rid of prize tables (remove the monetary incentive, and get the game back to being about competing well and excelling, rather than "getting something")

$.02

Bruce

[omnia1911]

Do foriegn USPSA memberships somehow violate the residency requirements of 6.5, or is it possible to hold multiple Regional memberships?

[bgary]

US Appendix A1 line 2 gives no either/or, and says nothing about shooting Unclassified. It only says that you must be a USPSA member. I'm aware that the IPSC Appendix A1 line 2 says that a shooter must be a member of an IPSC Region.

Hmmm... I hadn't noticed that language difference before, and will have to see if I can get an "official" answer. I know that, historically, (and having worked the registration table at a fair number of Level-IIIs and Nationals in the US), non-US shooters are asked to show or assert that they are members of their home region if they do not have USPSA foreign-membership.

Having said that, I think it is important to note that there are two different topics intertwined here... one is eligibility to *shoot* in a USPSA nationals, the other is eligibility for a class prize in the USPSA Nationals.

Anyone [my current understanding and belief] can *shoot* the nationals, if they are a member of USPSA or of another IPSC region.

But they are only eligible to compete in a "class" if they have a USPSA classification. So, if someone comes to the US and shoots the nationals but has never obtained a USPSA classification, they will necessarily be shooting "unclassified".

Do foriegn USPSA memberships somehow violate the residency requirements of 6.5, or is it possible to hold multiple Regional memberships?

Again, that's two different topics. A foreign membership allows a non-US shooter to obtain a USPSA classification. It does not [to my knowledge] supplant the need for that shooter to *also* hold membership in their own IPSC region (which is what 6.5.1 requires), nor does it "make them a US shooter" for purposes of team placement, national awards, etc (which is what 6.5.2 covers).

Bruce

[omnia1911]

Having said that, I think it is important to note that there are two different topics intertwined here... one is eligibility to *shoot* in a USPSA nationals, the other is eligibility for a class prize in the USPSA Nationals.

I agree.

Anyone [my current understanding and belief] can *shoot* the nationals, if they are a member of USPSA or of another IPSC region.

I read the rule book differently.

But they are only eligible to compete in a "class" if they have a USPSA classification.  So, if someone comes to the US and shoots the nationals but has never obtained a USPSA classification, they will necessarily be shooting "unclassified".

I believe that one must first become a USPSA member to obtain the classification title "Unclassified". After submitting to the record the requisite number of classifiers one can the hold a classification. Non-USPSA members need to hold a different status.

...A foreign membership allows a non-US shooter to obtain a USPSA classification.  It does not [to my knowledge] supplant the need for that shooter to *also* hold membership in their own IPSC region (which is what 6.5.1 requires), nor does it "make them a US shooter" for purposes of team placement,...

I agree.

...national awards, etc (which is what 6.5.2 covers).

Huh? Aren't the classification awards at the USPSA Nationals national awards?

[bgary]

I believe that one must first become a USPSA member to obtain the classification title "Unclassified". After submitting to the record the requisite number of classifiers one can the hold a classification. Non-USPSA members need to hold a different status.

Not sure I understand.

Any person at a USPSA match who does not have a USPSA classification is considered "unclassified", and competes in "U" class (i.e., is not in GM, M, A, B, C or D).

That is true whether the shooter is a new USPSA member who has not amassed the requisite number of classifier scores, or a non-US shooter who is a member of another region, and has no USPSA affiliation whatsoever.

In other words, the "U" simply means "this shooter has not obtained a USPSA classification".

Aren't the classification awards at the USPSA Nationals national awards?

By "National awards" I meant [for example] the title of US National Champion. This can be awarded to a shooter who is a resident of the US region, but not to a shooter who reside in another region, even if they are a "US foreign member".

I don't think (personal opinion) that class awards (eg, "Top-C") are considered "US National Champion" awards and, in fact, there is no residency requirement on those.

Bruce

[omnia1911]

Not sure I understand.

Any person at a USPSA match who does not have a USPSA classification is considered "unclassified", and competes in "U" class (i.e., is not in GM, M, A, B, C or D).

That is true whether the shooter is a new USPSA member who has not amassed the requisite number of classifier scores, or a non-US shooter who is a member of another region, and has no USPSA affiliation whatsoever.

In other words, the "U" simply means "this shooter has not obtained a USPSA classification".

Yes, this is the way it is now. I was just commenting that there should be a differentiation between a member and a non-member being termed unclassified, but then we have a problem with the scoring program not having a tag for them.

I don't think (personal opinion) that class awards (eg, "Top-C") are considered "US National Champion" awards and, in fact, there is no residency requirement on those. 

There's an answer. Make the classification awards a residency required award. Foreign members would go to the prize table in the order of finish.

[Ron Ankeny]

Yes it would suck to send the message to foreign shooters that their attendance is neither needed nor desirable.

[short_round]

It's the US Nationals people only US citizens or green card holders should recieve titles or trophies. Just my opinion.

Rich

Wouldn't it be a terrible shame if people like Eric Grauffel stopped coming to the US Nationals because they were effectively being told they weren't wanted?

Kevin

It would be a terrible shame.

[omnia1911]

My suggestion only pertained to the class awards at the Nationals. Overall winners in each division at the Nationals would be treated the same as it is now. Class awards would go to domestic USPSA members only. Both domestic and foreign members are eligible for the overall awards in each division. Eric Grauffel and the others are most welcome to attend still.

My reasoning is that the domestic members do a lot to run the local clubs, finance, and volunteer for USPSA. I think it is considerate of that effort for USPSA to pay back their hard work by requiring that the class awards at the Nationals have a residency requirement. Just a thought.

The side benefit is that this idea would also address some of the concerns that started this thread.

[BSeevers]

My suggestion only pertained to the class awards at the Nationals. Overall winners in each division at the Nationals would be treated the same as it is now. Class awards would go to domestic USPSA members only. Both domestic and foreign members are eligible for the overall awards in each division. Eric Grauffel and the others are most welcome to attend still.

My reasoning is that the domestic members do a lot to run the local clubs, finance, and volunteer for USPSA. I think it is considerate of that effort for USPSA to pay back their hard work by requiring that the class awards at the Nationals have a residency requirement. Just a thought.

I agree as a American and USPSA member.

I think the real issue is a lot of class winners are not shooting classifiers all year long and live outside the US. I welcome all people to any matches EXCEPT when they are "cheating the system". As I said heads up would solve this too and eliminate classifiers forever. Now theres a interesting thought.

Its just not good competition when you are beat by a person manipulating a system to win. My sense of fair play and sportsmanship tell me something stinks. I think minium # of classifiers shot a year is fully reasonable for a foreign or US shooter.

[John Dunn]

Scrap the prize table. Shoot for fun and pride in a job well done. If someone is travelling from outside the states to shoot the match, they are spending way more than whatever cupie doll they scoop off the prize table is worth. If they beat you, they deserve to go to the prize table first. Why should first D get to the table before second M? If they are sandbagging, ridicule them and move on.

Classifiers are great as a large postal match to chart your progress, but do create undue hand wringing.

[omnia1911]

Scrap the prize table. Shoot for fun and pride in a job well done. If someone is traveling from outside the states to shoot the match, they are spending way more than whatever cupie doll they scoop off the prize table is worth. If they beat you, they deserve to go to the prize table first. Why should first D get to the table before second M? If they are sandbagging, ridicule them and move on.

Classifiers are great as a large postal match to chart your progress, but do create undue hand wringing.

I have been to plenty of matches that had no prize table and the sand baggers still showed up to collect the trophies and adulations. Humiliation and ridicule is music to their ears.

[Dalmas]

I agree as a American and USPSA member.

I think the real issue is a lot of class winners are not shooting classifiers all year long and live outside the US. I welcome all people to any matches EXCEPT when they are "cheating the system". As I said heads up would solve this too and eliminate classifiers forever. Now theres a interesting thought.

Its just not good competition when you are beat by a person manipulating a system to win. My sense of fair play and sportsmanship tell me something stinks. I think minium # of classifiers shot a year is fully reasonable for a foreign or US shooter.

One problem is that the US shoot USPSA and have their classifiers, the rest of the world shot IPSC with their own classifiers, the solver would be if we all shot the same thing......

[John Dunn]

Comes back to motivation. I shoot for fun, and with the hope of one day beating Sam and Ron so bad they wimper. As long as there are classifiers, there will be sandbaggers and grandbaggers, and I don't care. They don't affect my enjoyment of the match, and neither does getting a coupon for 50% off a reloading die vs. a gun.

[omnia1911]

The classification system is such an important revenue stream to USPSA that arriving at a viable solution to the sand bagging problem could upset that flow of money.

I think the USPSA BODs have realized this over the years and have chosen to deal with the devil (the sand bagger), rather than attack him outright, in order to insure a steady cash flow. I fully understand and sympathize with their dilemma.

[Jim Norman]

I agree as a American and USPSA member. 

I think the real issue is a lot of class winners are not shooting classifiers all year long and live outside the US.  I welcome all people to any matches EXCEPT when they are "cheating the system". As I said heads up would solve this too and eliminate classifiers forever. Now theres a interesting thought.

Its just not good competition when you are beat by a person manipulating a system to win. My sense of fair play and sportsmanship tell me something stinks. I think minium # of classifiers shot a year is fully reasonable for a foreign or US shooter.

One problem is that the US shoot USPSA and have their classifiers, the rest of the world shot IPSC with their own classifiers, the solver would be if we all shot the same thing......

I would welcome anyone that wants to shoot USPSA Classifiers anywhere in the world to do so as a Foreign member and submit them for record. If the rules don't currently allow for that, then I would propose a change to our rules that would allow and encourage the rest of the world to shoot USPSA Classifiers and submeit them. All you need to do is join as an Foreign Member and send in your dues. It may require a rule change to allow a foreign club to set up and shoot our classifer stages. if so, then I'd propose it.

If a country can't shoot our target, then set up the same course with the other target and shoot it. I'd allow that as an alternate.

My $0.02

Jim Norman