futool Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Hello All, I'm having a problem with my 625-4 and hoped the brilliant Enos collective could help me shine some light on the potential issue. The action will sometimes become very stiff (well over 15lbs) during live fire, and only live fire. It's otherwise perfect unloaded or while using snap caps. The normal DA trigger pull is about 5 lbs and was "Carmonized" by the guns previous owner. It has a bobbed hammer, reduced pull spring kit and polished internals. It doesn't happen on every shot and the only way to fix it, is to open the cylinder and advance it to the next chamber. Here's what I've checked so far with no luck in diagnosing the problem. The extractor rod... Nice and tight, not backing out at all. The ammo... Tried several soft reloads, Some with new star line brass. No visible primer creep or flow. Moon clips... Used several different types/thicknesses including the Hearthco's. Didn't make a difference Timing... The cylinder stop is off just a hair on 3 or the 6 positions and can only be noticed if the trigger is pulled very slowly. During a normal pull the cylinder will lock just before hammer drops. The hand and cylinder ratchet don't appear to have excessive wear. Dirt, and wear on internals... The entire frame has been taken apart, cleaned and shows no visual issues. So, does anyone out there have a suggestion? At this point, any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almostold Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 How about powder/crud under the extractor 'star'? Happened to me but cyl was also hard to close at times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
futool Posted January 17, 2013 Author Share Posted January 17, 2013 How about powder/crud under the extractor 'star'? Happened to me but cyl was also hard to close at times. Cleaned her up all puurdy like... Inside and out. Still happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuildSF4 Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 How about powder/crud under the extractor 'star'? Happened to me but cyl was also hard to close at times. Or powder crud around where the rear or the cylinder locks to the frame next to the ratchet pawl, have seen this, no effect or closing force, sometimes huge effect on trigger pull weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waltermitty Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Search end shake and barrel/cylinder gap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alecmc Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 I've personally fired futol's 625, and I would better describe it as a complete lock up which happens as soon as you start pulling the trigger ( you maybe get a 1/8" of pull before she freezes up ) while frozen you can physically see that the cylinder stop has recessed inside the frame Gun has been stripped and cleaned out , every part. Again, can only replicate this in LIVE fire, dry firing with or with out dummy rounds shows no issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
futool Posted January 17, 2013 Author Share Posted January 17, 2013 I've personally fired futol's 625, and I would better describe it as a complete lock up which happens as soon as you start pulling the trigger ( you maybe get a 1/8" of pull before she freezes up ) while frozen you can physically see that the cylinder stop has recessed inside the frame Gun has been stripped and cleaned out , every part. Again, can only replicate this in LIVE fire, dry firing with or with out dummy rounds shows no issue. Yeah, when you tried it, it was locking up completely. But at the PPC match a few nights before, i was able to force it on a few rounds. But quickly realized that it's just not worth causing more potential damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
futool Posted January 17, 2013 Author Share Posted January 17, 2013 Search end shake and barrel/cylinder gap. End shake? I'll google it now. I gapped it during the inspection at my FFL and it was about 3 mils and consistent through the rotation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waltermitty Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Search end shake and barrel/cylinder gap. End shake? I'll google it now. I gapped it during the inspection at my FFL and it was about 3 mils and consistent through the rotation. You can google it if you like, but a search of this forum will return better results. Check the gap again while you push the cylinder forward towards the barrel. Anything less than about .001" will bind during firing as parts heat up and get dirty. End shake is the difference in barrel gap from when the cylinder is pushed fully forward and fully rearward. You want that to be a very small number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
futool Posted January 17, 2013 Author Share Posted January 17, 2013 Search end shake and barrel/cylinder gap. Hi Walt, thanks for the tip. Would excessive end shake cause a lockup and wouldn't it also be present while using the snap caps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
futool Posted January 17, 2013 Author Share Posted January 17, 2013 Search end shake and barrel/cylinder gap. End shake? I'll google it now. I gapped it during the inspection at my FFL and it was about 3 mils and consistent through the rotation. You can google it if you like, but a search of this forum will return better results. Check the gap again while you push the cylinder forward towards the barrel. Anything less than about .001" will bind during firing as parts heat up and get dirty. End shake is the difference in barrel gap from when the cylinder is pushed fully forward and fully rearward. You want that to be a very small number. Interesting... I'm pretty sure the barrel to cylinder gap was 3 mils but it never dawned on me to push the cylinder back and check the gap again. I'll do that tonight and see what it is. Thanks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alecmc Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 If that's the issue how would it be fixed ? Shim washers in the cylinder correct ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
futool Posted January 17, 2013 Author Share Posted January 17, 2013 If that's the issue how would it be fixed ? Shim washers in the cylinder correct ? And that's the way it is. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmYzAVgDBkY&list=HL1358453442&feature=mh_lolz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanc Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 (edited) I had a similar issue with a 627, The sear pin was moving around ever so slightly and hitting the side plate. Centered it and swaged it in....has not re-occured. Edited January 17, 2013 by seanc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waltermitty Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Search end shake and barrel/cylinder gap. Hi Walt, thanks for the tip. Would excessive end shake cause a lockup and wouldn't it also be present while using the snap caps? Search end shake and barrel/cylinder gap. End shake? I'll google it now. I gapped it during the inspection at my FFL and it was about 3 mils and consistent through the rotation. You can google it if you like, but a search of this forum will return better results. Check the gap again while you push the cylinder forward towards the barrel. Anything less than about .001" will bind during firing as parts heat up and get dirty. End shake is the difference in barrel gap from when the cylinder is pushed fully forward and fully rearward. You want that to be a very small number. Interesting... I'm pretty sure the barrel to cylinder gap was 3 mils but it never dawned on me to push the cylinder back and check the gap again. I'll do that tonight and see what it is. Thanks... When I originally ran into this problem it only happened at matches, so I considered that the timer buzzer was the cause. If my gun was clean and cool it wouldn't bind, but get some hot soot in the barrel gap and things would get sticky. The hand not only rotates the cylinder, it pushes it slightly forward, hence, the harder you pull the harder it pushes. I like my endshake very small. A less precise way to check it (with an unloaded gun of course) is to hold the gun up to the light and look at the barrel gap. Push the cylinder rearward and forward. If you see the light through the barrel gap disappear, there you go. A shim or two will fix it probably, but be scientific and use feeler gages and math to impress your friends. The kicker on my original run in with this problem was with a 625-8 that S&W had just charged me a pretty penny to replace the cylinder for notch peening, but that's another rant for another day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
futool Posted January 17, 2013 Author Share Posted January 17, 2013 I had a similar issue with a 627, The sear pin was moving around ever so slightly and hitting the side plate. Centered it and swaged it in....has not re-occured. Also interesting, but i'd imagine that once the pin moved out slightly and hit the side plate it would also mess with the action while unloaded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
futool Posted January 17, 2013 Author Share Posted January 17, 2013 Search end shake and barrel/cylinder gap. Hi Walt, thanks for the tip. Would excessive end shake cause a lockup and wouldn't it also be present while using the snap caps? Search end shake and barrel/cylinder gap. End shake? I'll google it now. I gapped it during the inspection at my FFL and it was about 3 mils and consistent through the rotation. You can google it if you like, but a search of this forum will return better results. Check the gap again while you push the cylinder forward towards the barrel. Anything less than about .001" will bind during firing as parts heat up and get dirty. End shake is the difference in barrel gap from when the cylinder is pushed fully forward and fully rearward. You want that to be a very small number. Interesting... I'm pretty sure the barrel to cylinder gap was 3 mils but it never dawned on me to push the cylinder back and check the gap again. I'll do that tonight and see what it is. Thanks... When I originally ran into this problem it only happened at matches, so I considered that the timer buzzer was the cause. If my gun was clean and cool it wouldn't bind, but get some hot soot in the barrel gap and things would get sticky. The hand not only rotates the cylinder, it pushes it slightly forward, hence, the harder you pull the harder it pushes. I like my endshake very small. A less precise way to check it (with an unloaded gun of course) is to hold the gun up to the light and look at the barrel gap. Push the cylinder rearward and forward. If you see the light through the barrel gap disappear, there you go. A shim or two will fix it probably, but be scientific and use feeler gages and math to impress your friends. The kicker on my original run in with this problem was with a 625-8 that S&W had just charged me a pretty penny to replace the cylinder for notch peening, but that's another rant for another day. It makes sense. I can't wait to get home and check it out. Thank you sir! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alecmc Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Order me some extra washers for my parts stash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waltermitty Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 I had a similar issue with a 627, The sear pin was moving around ever so slightly and hitting the side plate. Centered it and swaged it in....has not re-occured. Also interesting, but i'd imagine that once the pin moved out slightly and hit the side plate it would also mess with the action while unloaded. I would keep it on the list of things to check. One thing infuriating about S&W design and manufacturing precision is that the hammer assembly and trigger assembly float back and forth on thier pins inside the frame. While live firing you not only get recoil pushing the gun back and up, the gun torques as it imparts spin to the bullet. These movements can shift parts into, and out of, interference in ways that are hard to replicate dry firing. If you get serious, you'll want shims to set and space endshake and barrel gap, shims to center the hammer assembly in the frame and reduce drag, and shims to center the trigger assembly. And that's just the beginning... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waltermitty Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Order me some extra washers for my parts stash Yeah, the shipping costs as much as the parts so you might as well have them fill the bag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Good advice from Waltermitty on this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toothguy Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 I've personally fired futol's 625, and I would better describe it as a complete lock up which happens as soon as you start pulling the trigger ( you maybe get a 1/8" of pull before she freezes up ) while frozen you can physically see that the cylinder stop has recessed inside the frame Gun has been stripped and cleaned out , every part. Again, can only replicate this in LIVE fire, dry firing with or with out dummy rounds shows no issue. Does the trigger feel like when it is short stroked? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alecmc Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 (edited) I've personally fired futol's 625, and I would better describe it as a complete lock up which happens as soon as you start pulling the trigger ( you maybe get a 1/8" of pull before she freezes up ) while frozen you can physically see that the cylinder stop has recessed inside the frame Gun has been stripped and cleaned out , every part. Again, can only replicate this in LIVE fire, dry firing with or with out dummy rounds shows no issue. Does the trigger feel like when it is short stroked? Yes, sort of,..only difference is sometimes you can muscle through it and finish the trigger pull. Edited January 17, 2013 by alecmc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
earplug Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Curious if this revolver is shooting lead bullets? I had a M-14 with the old style yoke / gas shield and it would bind, when lead/lube spatter got between the cylinder and yoke. I opened up the barrel forcing cone a tad.and made sure to shoot it wet with lube. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhgtyre Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 Good advice from Waltermitty on this thread. I was going to post the same thing. I had similar problems with my JM 625 and after a quick trip to a local gunsmith it is all better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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