of Dark Houses and Flashlights

[Wakal]

Another strange question from the San Angelo crowd:

Knowing there was a "dark house" at the 2004 USPSA Nationals, we invented a 170mm mag-gauge fitting side-mounted flashlight system for STI magazines.

We asked, just to make sure, if such a setup...not being a "external modification" to a pistol...would be legal. Seeing as it was a permanent attachment to a magazine tube, not a pistol...

We were told, in no uncertain terms, that a mag-mounted flashlight was "illegal", yet could not quote rules.

Being a first-year student of Uncle Vinnie's Socially Challanged Range Officer Academy, I thought that we had to quote: rules, stage walk through, or an announced (at the match shooter's meeting). The shooter's meeting did not mention it. No rule was quoted, and when asked for a specific rule, was told "because we said so." Hmmm...

Did I miss something?

Alex

[Nik Habicht]

Alex,

I'm pretty sure the stage description will require you to only use match provided flashlights --- at least that's how it was dealt with at last year's FGN......

[Vince Pinto]

Alex,

As your question relates specifically to the 2004 USPSA Nationals, you should seek a ruling from John Amidon or Troy McManus, who are both listed as Range Masters for the subject match.

[Wakal]

Vince,

Amidon was the "because I said so" quote. Which makes this a forgone discussion vis a vis the 2004 Nationals, but for any matches that had to play by actual written rules I wanted to be able to quote one (at one of the matches where I am the MD, for example...I don't like to rule by dictorial fiat, myself).

Hence the question, which is still unanswered.

Alex

[Skywalker]

Alex,

as far as IPSC is concerned, I found no rules prohibiting that in Open Division (I guess you're referring to Open because of the 170mm mag tip); for Modified and Standard I guess you have to deal with the box rule, for Production and Revolver I guess it's not legal.

IMHO, the only way to restrict flashlight use (in terms of what equipment and where it shall be placed during COF attempt) is by written stage briefing.

Of course, if you show up on the deck with a flashlight attached to your magazine, the same mag cannot be detached from the flashlight for the whole match, but you could alwys have it on your belt and use it only for the stage in question.

[Yoda]

Of course, if you show up on the deck with a flashlight attached to your magazine, the same mag cannot be detached from the flashlight for the whole match, but you could alwys have it on your belt and use it only for the stage in question.

Luca,

who says that you have to use the same magazine the whole match? The usual equipment sheets only cover the position of the mag pouches. I'm allowed to start a CoF with one mag in the pouch leaving the others empty ...

Ridiculous?? Maybe but think about the bigsticks ... those are only carried when they are needed, otherwise they are left in the rangebag.

[Vince Pinto]

who says that you have to use the same magazine the whole match?

But we're not discussing a simple magazine. For your consideration:

(From the August 2004 IPSC Rule Interpretations)

5.1.3.2 "Optical/electronic sights" are aiming devices (including flashlights) fitted to a firearm which use electronic circuitry and/or lenses.

(From the January 2004 Edition IPSC Rulebook)

5.1.7 Competitors must use the same handgun and type of sights for all courses of fire in a match. <snip>

As flashlights have now been defined by IPSC as "sights", and in view of Rule 5.1.7, it therefore follows that you would not be able to use a flashlight fitted to a fiream selectively on some stages. It's all or nothing.

Of course the issue of "hand-held" flashlights (i.e. those not actually mounted to a gun), used in a typical LEO "crossover" hold, is another issue entirely.

[lynn jones]

alex,

i think it all boils down to the course description. i would think you can use any sighting devise you want to, as long as you use the one the stage description says to use.

lynn

[Wakal]

Thanks, Vince, that was exactly what I was talking about! The question, though, is that the "flashlight sighting device" is attached to a magazine, NOT a firearm. Does the rule still apply?

But now I'm sure that slapping the Streamlight on the rail of my "uberninja tactical pistol" will get me moved to Open

Alex

[Scooter]

Why deal with mounting the flashlight to the gun? Attach the flashlight to your ear muffs. That way it points to where your head is pointed.

[Skywalker]

Looks like I missed something.

Of course (as always) Vince is right: I overlooked the Rules interpretations and missed the sights re-definition that included flashlights.

BTW Vince, the crossover position for holding a flashlight is called the Harris Technique.

Yoda,

I was not implying that the mag has to be worn all the time, but simply stating that I didn't think it was allowed to modify a mag (i.e. detaching the flashlight) for some stages; to me it's like having a racking lever or an extended mag release on the gun: you can have it, but you can't remove it for some stages.

E.g. a gun with extended mag relase fitted would expose the shooter to the risk of premature mag dropping when the start position is with gun laid flat on a table, but he is not entitled to remove it from the gun for the stage in question: either he uses it for the entire match or not.

[Dead Buff]

We try to keep it simple here. Our night shoots and dark houses are shot with convetional hand help flashlights which may not be attached anywhere. Grab it in hand, between knees, bite on it, whatever....no attaching and then have fun....

my 0.02

[Vince Pinto]

The question, though, is that the "flashlight sighting device" is attached to a magazine, NOT a firearm.  Does the rule still apply?

If the flashlight is attached to a magazine which is then inserted into the gun, I would most certainly rule that this arrangement satifies the "fitted to a firearm" language, and it would therefore require you to use it for all courses of fire.

BTW Vince, the crossover position for holding a flashlight is called the Harris Technique.

Damn. I could've sworn it was called a "Texas Torch" or something similar involving the word "Texas"

[mactiger]

The course description stated that you had to use the supplied flashlight. Adding one to the gun isn't illegal, per the rules, it just didn't satisfy the course requirements as stated in the stage briefing. The stage briefing also said you couldn't hold it in your mouth, and had to hold it in your hand.

Troy

[Jake Di Vita]

Just out of curiosity, could you have attached the supplied flashlight to the magazine as said before? It seems like that woudl satisfy the COF rules as well.

[Wakal]

While I never saw it in writing either, Jay briefed (and since he even memorizes his ad-lib jokes, I am positive he said it to everyone) that the flashlight there on Stage One had to start in the weak hand.

Some folks attached the lanyard to their weak hand/wrist, and let the light "dangle" during the course of fire. I thought that was pretty slick, although the shooting distances were all powder burn distance.

Vince, while I agree with you, the guy who actually HAS the flashligh/magazine keeps it attached to his magazine for the whole and entire match. He just doesn't use that particular magazine much

Alex

[Vince Pinto]

Vince, while I agree with you, the guy who actually HAS the flashligh/magazine keeps it attached to his magazine for the whole and entire match.  He just doesn't use that particular magazine much

I understand what you're saying, but that's not what I'm saying !!!

Under the revised IPSC definitions, a flashlight (when fitted to a firearm) is classified as an "optical/electronic" sight and, as I said earlier, it is my considered opinion that when such a magazine is inserted into the gun, this satisfies the "fitted to a firearm" language.

Accordingly, if you use a "magazine with flashlight", you must use that magazine (and only that magazine), exclusively for the whole match.

In other words, if you effect a reload and remove the "magazine with flashlight" from the gun, you're actually changing (removing) a sight, so you would therefore be subject to Rule 5.1.8 and, by default, a Section 10.6 Match DQ for Unsportsmanlike Conduct.

[Wakal]

And I agree with that too.

Reload Standards would end up with a huge number of procedurals, since only one magazine was legal for that gun BUT reloads were demanded AND we learned during the last episode of Ask Uncle Vinnie that doing a "drop mag, reinsert mag" reload was not really a reload

Now on a different take off the same topic, it would be kind of amusing to build an Open gun with a "tactical" rail...and leave one of those new (and very small) weapons-mounted lights on it for the whole match, as appropriate. Like a STI "Tactical" Stinger. (BTW, I asked Dave about building just such a thing for me, and he told me to wait until the SHOT show. ).

Alex

[shred]

Too late, I've seen an Open gun with a tac-rail already.. you should hear the IDPA guys at night shoots.

[Garfield]

In other words, if you effect a reload and remove the "magazine with flashlight" from the gun, you are actually changing (removing) a sight, so you would therefore be subject to Rule 5.1.8 and, by default, a Section 10.6 Match DQ for Unsportsmanlike Conduct.

To take this discussion (which IMHO is already way off into the ridiculous ) a step further towards total ridiculosity : what if I had all my magazines equipped with all the same flashlights ?

[Vince Pinto]

Now on a different take off the same topic, it would be kind of amusing to build an Open gun with a "tactical" rail...and leave one of those new (and very small) weapons-mounted lights on it for the whole match, as appropriate.

Hell, you can do that now with a Glock and, provided the light stayed attached to the gun for the entire match, no problem.

what if I had all my magazines equipped with all the same flashlights ? 

Also no problem, but you might need suspenders to prevent your pants from falling down. You'd also need a shitload of batteries

[wide45]

You'd also need a shitload of batteries 

Only one mag/light would need batteries...

Can you wear a light on your hat? Would you have to wear the hat all day? Could you turn it backwards to go prone?

When they first announced the "Dark House" stage, I thought it was a bad idea. I'm more convinced now.

[diehli]

I was thinking the same thing: miner's hat. Have the flashlight flailing about on your stronghand wrist and just use the light from the hat.

Either that or start gene therapy with the DNA of a glowworm.

[wide45]

Do you have to hang on to the light they give you?

The last time I shot a"dark" stage, I turned the light on, and left it on the ground. Had enough light to spot the targets, and point shot them.

[Dead Buff]

A bit off topic:

There was a Dark House stage at the Africa Champs last year, but no flashlights were allowed. The targets were painted with fluorescent paint around the edges (and yes there was a swinger.... ). The stage, however, got pulled due to health considerations - not sufficient ventilation while keeping it dark....

If you can get around the ventilation thing, try the above in future....