Carmoney Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 I shot a COF last weekend that required a triple-tap on a close target, then engaging 5 more targets with two rounds each. A match I shot a couple months ago required the shooter to fire seven shots, then perform a mandatory tactical reload, then move to another shooting location and fire seven more shots. The book tells you to make "every effort" to make the COFs revolver-neutral. With minor adjustments the COFs described above could have been fair to the wheelgunners, and just as fun for everyone else. I sure don't mind speedloading my hogleg, but I shouldn't have to eat a ton of static reloads in IDPA matches. It's discouraging when the results come out. Since there are only a few wheelgunners at each match, we would really like to know how we're competing (at least roughly) with the rest of you! Is there anyone out there who think this request is unreasonable?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firewalker Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 Carmoney, I feel your pain. a few matches back we had a horrible long stage where u shot 3 rounds around barracade tac load shot 6 more than replaced the remainder in wheelie to finish stage... it was a breeze for bottom feeders... but to get a moon clip back in gun under time with 3 live loads and 3 empties was a F* night mare The only saving grace was the MD crashed and burned with his SSR neutral isn't necessary...but shootable is not to much to ask Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 Guys, I really feel your pain especially when I have to shoot a 30 round course of fire that has 5 different shooting points and a gun that only holds 10 rounds. With only 4 mag pouches there is no room to screw up unless I want to do standing reloads. Of course I don't have to shoot Production or Limited 10, I could always shoot Limited or Open. Maybe you should complain to your Association President and ask for relief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
short_round Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 Since there are only a few wheelgunners at each match, we would really like to know how we're competing (at least roughly) with the rest of you! ... but aren't you only competing against the other wheel gunners? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NEPAKevin Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 My understanding of revolver or six shot neutral is that the scenario should not be such that it cannot be legally shot by a six shot gun. An example would be having a dissapearing target that is triggered by shot six and dissapears on shot seven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 I like revolvers, and I keep them in mind when I design stages for IDPA and/or IPSC. However, revolver shooters are in the minority so I try to please the majority, and that can be tough. Fact is, a properly designed IDPA course will in all likelyhood be revolver neutral because they are not supposed to be high round count IPSC clones. IDPA courses usually become revolver hateful when the course designer tries to bump up the round count or get cute with some gimmick. The best way to influence course design is to take an active role in the setup. That's pretty easy at your home club because all you need to do is volunteer your time. When shooting at an away club, about all a person can do is to politely voice their concern, then shut up and shoot or quit attending. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dunn Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 I saw a revolver over in Cody at the firearms museum, once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geezer-lock Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 Making things fit for the “big round thang” (or a “medium round thang”) is a taxing chore sometimes. I try to design every stage with the wheel gunners in mind and it does take some additional thought to get it done. Today I have a stage that takes 11 rounds total. Assuming (there’s that word) that you don’t miss, most SSP and ESP guns can get through without a reload. What to do with the single stack and revolvers? I put a wall up so that they could load on the move behind cover. Everybody has to cover that distance so I figure that is pretty fair. One of the big problems here is that the LGB speaks to this issue this way: “Every effort will be made to keep all courses six (6) shot revolver neutral.” There is no indication anywhere of what that means. I have asked HQ and got no response. I posed the question in another forum, nada. There are varying opinions on how to arrive at “revolver neutral” nirvana. 1. No standing reloads 2. Not more than six shots required from any shooting point 3. Round counts that require everyone to reload (12 is optimal) 4. Required reloads (my least favorite) What do you think? geezer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Murphy Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 Kevin's right. It can challenge revolver shooters or be a PIA to shoot for a roundgunner- but it's still legal. If you miss out on a dissappearing target or have to shoot 8 shots while moving to cover or something like that, then you go from making a tough wheelgun stage to screwing the roundgunners. I shot a stage 2 weeks ago where you engaged 4 targets on the move with 2 rounds each. I fired my six, reloaded on the move, then engaged the last one at about 179.9999 degrees to my right. The SO was a little upset and told me so, (I I do believe he was still moving when I slowed to engage and he almost took a model 66 S&W in the chin) and I told him that was the price he paid for not reading the rulebook when he set up the stage. I suggested a barrel in the middle of the range so wheelgunners were made to stop and reload there would have made for a better stage that would have given the bottomfeeders a good stage (they'd just pass the barrel by) and wouldn't make the wheelgunners have to do a standing reload or cowboy it like I did. Ted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Practical Use Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 What's a revolver?????????? Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Murphy Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 What's a revolver??????????Ed Handgun of the annointed few. Not unlike the lightsaber for the Jedi. :) Ted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Practical Use Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 Ted, What is a lightsaber????????? Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted September 11, 2004 Share Posted September 11, 2004 Guys, I really feel your pain especially when I have to shoot a 30 round course of fire that has 5 different shooting points and a gun that only holds 10 rounds. With only 4 mag pouches there is no room to screw up unless I want to do standing reloads. Of course I don't have to shoot Production or Limited 10, I could always shoot Limited or Open. Maybe you should complain to your Association President and ask for relief. Um....this is the IDPA forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted September 11, 2004 Share Posted September 11, 2004 (Practical Use @ Sep 11 2004, 12:25 AM) What's a revolver?????????? Ed Handgun of the annointed few. Not unlike the lightsaber for the Jedi. Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted September 11, 2004 Author Share Posted September 11, 2004 Ted and Duane: HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! OK, you guys just knocked me right out of the whiny-ass mood I was in when I started this string. Thanks!! Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Murphy Posted September 11, 2004 Share Posted September 11, 2004 Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Perez Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid. Depends : is that a pre or post ban light saber? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincent Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 There are varying opinions on how to arrive at “revolver neutral” nirvana.1. No standing reloads 2. Not more than six shots required from any shooting point 3. Round counts that require everyone to reload (12 is optimal) 4. Required reloads (my least favorite) What do you think? 1. IDPA isn't IPSC/USPSA and most reloads are performed behind cover which often means standing still. Since IDPA requires standing reloads at some point for all divisions so this can't be helped 2. You can have more than 6 shots from a single position as long as cover is available for the reload. 3. This one is often a good idea, but I'm sure getting tired of 12 round COF. 4. In my opinion there should not be mandated reloads in a "scenario stage". Required reloads should only be used in a "standards stage". I agree with NEPAkevin that revolver neutral means that the course of fire can be legally completed by a revolver shooter. This usually means having cover available for reloads after 6 rounds, and making sure moving targets are placed so that shooters with only 6 rounds don't get screwed. It does not mean that all divisions have the same number of reloads or shooting positions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Murphy Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 FWIW, at the pa state match there were many stages that were not your usual 2-2-2 style stages, and the majority of the COF shooters were die hard wheelgunners. We are bored of it too. Ted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trader Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 We shot an IDPA match yesterday. How about 4 seasons worth of head shots in the same match! I counted 29 if I remember correctly. At least 3 of those targets requiring multiple head shots were 15 yards out, one was at 20 yards and on another stage 25 yard head shots required. I brought 2 new shooters with me and it was not a great COF to break in newbies. The next match those newbies will probably go fishing . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincent Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 The IDPA course design guidelines restrict head shots to 10 yds or less. Maybe the rangemaster should review that section. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayonaise Posted September 13, 2004 Share Posted September 13, 2004 Specific COF guidelines apply to sanctioned matches. Club matches are given more latitude in COF design. Personally I always tried to run my club matches using the sanctioned match guidelines. It doesn't bother me at club matches when there's some deviations as long as it doesn't get silly or too IPSC like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted September 13, 2004 Author Share Posted September 13, 2004 I agree with NEPAkevin that revolver neutral means that the course of fire can be legally completed by a revolver shooter. I believe you're describing the term "revolver possible"..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Murphy Posted September 13, 2004 Share Posted September 13, 2004 Specific COF guidelines apply to sanctioned matches. Club matches are given more latitude in COF design. Personally I always tried to run my club matches using the sanctioned match guidelines. It doesn't bother me at club matches when there's some deviations as long as it doesn't get silly or too IPSC like. FWIW, back when the LGB came out Walt Rauch specifically told me that the COF guidelines are in effect both for local matches and sanctioned matches. The whole point of the LGB was parity between clubs. Might not have been fully realized, but turning a blind eye to COF guidelines is exactly the kind of stuff that makes some IDPA clubs get a real bad reputation. Ted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillD Posted September 13, 2004 Share Posted September 13, 2004 Again, FWIW, I was the MD for the Indiana State match. I had several emails and calls from folks who wanted to know if a concealment garment would be needed. It seems they never wear one at their IDPA club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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