GentlemanJim Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Might as well add. Open irons ss optic lim optic lim 10 optic once you open that door, just what do you think will happen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 WADR, the barn door was left open many years ago. USPSA went from 1 to 6 divisions over the course of about 25 years, 3 of which, if you add them together don't have the participation of Open, which is typically in 3rd place. IDPA and ICORE were, in some part created due to a lack of flexibility among the then in power USPSA leadership. One could argue in hindsight that USPSA would have more than double its current membership if the leadership would have listened to members in the 1990s, and probably 50% more members if the USPSA leadership had acted on the recommendations of probably the best shooting sports marketing mind, who was paid, but we received minimal benefit from. If current firearms trends and advances are not of importance to the health of an action shooting organization, then USPSA really should just go back to SS and get rid of all the advances made. I am still not sure if PO is good for USPSA or not, but to say an optic on a production pistol is not gaining popularity faster than any other handgun segment is just ignorance of the current market trends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentlemanJim Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Who was arguing ? I have no dog in this fight, just sayin come one ...come all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Might as well add. Open irons ss optic lim optic lim 10 optic once you open that door, just what do you think will happen? This is why I am for a more liberal set of rules for a new division. I would like to see more platforms able to compete, with modification restrictions that are more like Single Stack, keep it simple Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Who was arguing ? I have no dog in this fight, just sayin come one ...come all. Not you. Can I borrow a Cat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 I think the best way to get this in front of the membership would be a write-up in Front Sight magazine. I could pull something together and perhaps tie it in to the Area 3 championships where i plan to shoot my XDM + DeltaPoint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadeslade Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 That would be excellent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 I think the best way to get this in front of the membership would be a write-up in Front Sight magazine. I could pull something together and perhaps tie it in to the Area 3 championships where i plan to shoot my XDM + DeltaPoint. IF they allow the article to be published Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 I think the best way to get this in front of the membership would be a write-up in Front Sight magazine. I could pull something together and perhaps tie it in to the Area 3 championships where i plan to shoot my XDM + DeltaPoint. one caution on an article, if you finish anywhere near where your classification would predict it could be used to show why we don't need the division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 That is irrelevant. Let the facts speak for themselves, don't try to "protect" the desire from the truth...never works out in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric4069 Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 (edited) Taking some suggestions from other posts (thanks to all for the suggestions); 7. Maximum Size - Yes, handgun with empty magazine inserted must fit wholly within a box with internal dimensions of 8 15/16” x 6” x 1 5/8” (tolerance +1/16”, -0”) (8.938”x6”x1.625”) (227.01mmx152.40mmx41.28mm). There is a 4.00" or 100mm opening in the top right edge to accommodate a scope. Procedure: The unloaded gun with an empty magazine inserted must be placed within the box with the barrel parallel to the longest side of the box with the scope aligned with the opening of the box as shown in the picture (see below). Note: All magazines must comply. ProdOpticsXDMDP.png 13. Optical/electronic sights permitted - Yes. 18. Weight - Within five (5) ounces of factory specification. Looks great to me. I would only consider adding some provision to allow C.O.R.E. or other manufacturers Prod Optic type gun which may be developed in the future and is essentially the same as a current Production approved gun except for the addition of being precut for slide-ride optic ( 5" C.O.R.E. itself is not yet Production approved but certainly should be approved for Production Optics). Eric Edited July 25, 2014 by eric4069 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 So at some level I see we continue the endless debate ... Therefore I only plan to respond to posts that deal with moving forward to get this in front of the BOD. Or maybe the OP would be willing to ask the Mods to close this thread and we can start a new one about the action plan to move forward ... Toward that end .... I think an article in FS would certainly be useful but we still need a tactical and strategic plan to move forward once awareness is increased via the article ... While asking an AD or even a group of them to bring this in front of the Board has the virtue of being a lot simpler to execute, it allows for a very small group of individuals to decide the fate of this, regardless of what the members at large really want. The power of a petition, with potentially a 1,000 signatures or more, is that's it's very hard to ignore Anyone aware of a Board member willing to champion this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 So at some level I see we continue the endless debate ... Therefore I only plan to respond to posts that deal with moving forward to get this in front of the BOD. Or maybe the OP would be willing to ask the Mods to close this thread and we can start a new one about the action plan to move forward ... Toward that end .... I think an article in FS would certainly be useful but we still need a tactical and strategic plan to move forward once awareness is increased via the article ... While asking an AD or even a group of them to bring this in front of the Board has the virtue of being a lot simpler to execute, it allows for a very small group of individuals to decide the fate of this, regardless of what the members at large really want. The power of a petition, with potentially a 1,000 signatures or more, is that's it's very hard to ignore Anyone aware of a Board member willing to champion this? +1 I think either BritinUSA or Zack Jones should do it as they seem to have a good understanding of how things are run. BritinUSA has the rules down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 I'll try to write up a formal proposal this weekend. I'll post here to allow everyone a chance to review before I e-mail it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 I know there are at least one or two forum members who are Board members ... anyway we can get a read on the politics of the current Board to see how best to approach this ...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 That is irrelevant. Let the facts speak for themselves, don't try to "protect" the desire from the truth...never works out in the end.I was being a little tongue in cheek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 I know there are at least one or two forum members who are Board members ... anyway we can get a read on the politics of the current Board to see how best to approach this ...? Just email them. I emailed the three I know personally, and lo and behold, they all responded with their opinions in less than a day. No, I won't post what they said, but they all are aware of the desire and one possibility I had not considered was floated that I would support, and I told them so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 <snip>Toward that end .... I think an article in FS would certainly be useful but we still need a tactical and strategic plan to move forward once awareness is increased via the article ... <snip> The power of a petition, with potentially a 1,000 signatures or more, is that's it's very hard to ignore You know what would be MUCH more powerful than a petition with 1000 signatures? 10 people showing up to every match with production optics guns and shooting in open. That would convince me that there are people that really want to shoot these guns rather than people who just want to water down current divisions so they can win the bass boat in the monthly uspsa match. Stop being a bunch of pansies. So what if you 'cant compete' with $4000 guns in open? Surely if you and 9 other guys show up, you can do the math in your head to figure out who "won" the production optics class. Talk less. Do more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 easy to say but hard to do in practice as I believe people want to be competitive and shooting a PO gun in open would not accomplish that. therefore I suspect many that would be otherwise interested will wait to participate until there is a division with a level playing field. Besides, how does people shooting a PO gun in open show the Board that there are a lot of folks interested? It's not like they all travel around the country and show up at level 1 matches to see what the rank and file are up to? The way the Board sees how much interest there is will be to have a provisional division and watch how many people shoot it around the country .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 easy to say but hard to do in practice as I believe people want to be competitive and shooting a PO gun in open would not accomplish that. therefore I suspect many that would be otherwise interested will wait to participate until there is a division with a level playing field. Besides, how does people shooting a PO gun in open show the Board that there are a lot of folks interested? It's not like they all travel around the country and show up at level 1 matches to see what the rank and file are up to? The way the Board sees how much interest there is will be to have a provisional division and watch how many people shoot it around the country .... Exactly Is the BoD going to start scouring the local matches for how many are shooting Open minor? Some people are just a bit thick it seems Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 even that won't help as you can shoot Open minor with a gun that is not even close to PO legal ... I have one (STI Steelmaster) & plan to do exactly that from time to time to get familiar with shooting open division. Won't do a damn thing to push the PO division forward ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 Petition Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 I don't know about the rest of the BOD but in my area it has been active shooters that do go to club matches, with no hoopla or anything just shows up and shoots like everyone else. I would be surprised if he isn't taking notice of what is going on at the match. will they see every shooter and their gear? no but if there is enough interest and activity in a new division they will see those guys and end up on squads with them and may even talk to them. I wasn't around the sport before Production and Single stack were created, but I am willing to bet there were guys showing up to matches in large numbers shooting 9mm Glocks and Berettas and 45 1911's not being competitive in limited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 Some people are just a bit thick it seems Dunno if I'd say that, but it IS certainly unrealistic to expect someone else to do the work of creating a new division that you *claim* you want to shoot. I would call it naive and selfish, rather than thick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 easy to say but hard to do in practice as I believe people want to be competitive and shooting a PO gun in open would not accomplish that. Competitive for what? to win the 'open' division at your local monthly match? I guess I don't really care about people who are refusing to put their money where their mouth is due to wanting to 'win' their local monthly match. Surely if you can get 5-10 other local guys to do it, the group of you can do the math in your head to figure out who won your pretend division. You might not get the giant cash payout like our monthly match offers tho. Better yet, put on your own outlaw production optics match, and post back here with how many people show up and how excited they were and how excited the sponsors were. Why does everyone want to sit back and let someone else do the work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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