Getting a grip on recoil

[Psynapse]

Well... this started as me testing out new recoil springs and ended up different direction. I noticed something other than the gun. The recoil is pushing me back and my arms are lifting.

Let me first say;

1) I'm new at this.

2) I'm finally starting to see my front sight lift (ya... I did blink on the first round in the vid)

3) I'm always trying to improve my grip and stance

4) On a good day, soaking wet, I'm 5'11", 160lbs with "not so strong" arms(I'm working on this)

I thought I had my grip and stance pretty much worked out.

- Weak hand wrist locked forward.

- Pretty decent grip pressure

- I'm trying to get nose over toes, so to speak.

- I'm trying to not lock my elbows, ie arms straight out.

But I can definitely see in the video that my head and upper torso is being pushed back a fair amount and my arms are pivoting up at the shoulders. This appears to allow the muzzle of the gun to rise more than it should and disturbs my vision. I notice this problem shooting pairs. The followup shot is awkward and it has always felt like it takes forever for the gun to come back down.

I watch other shooters, who are at a level I would like to achieve, both in real life and their vids and it always looks like the gun is recoiling backwards and their arms are "piston-ing" , bending at their elbows. And the recoil never seems to affect their heads.

I'm lost as to what I should be doing. Elbows out? Unlock my elbows more? Stiffen my arms and shoulders more so they don't pivot up? Lean waaay the heck forward? What should be "relaxed"?

Any tips or things to try would be appreciated.

Edited October 26, 2012 by Psynapse

[tackdr1ver]

Try bending your elbows a tiny bit more, that will help your arms absorb more recoil rather than having the recoil push straight back through the back of your shoulder blades. Also make sure your shoulders are more relaxed and you're not hunched over the gun, if you're too tense in the neck & shoulders the recoil will knock you around.. Think multiple layer shock absorbers... Starting at wrists then elbows, shoulders etc..

[Psynapse]

Try bending your elbows a tiny bit more, that will help your arms absorb more recoil rather than having the recoil push straight back through the back of your shoulder blades. Also make sure your shoulders are more relaxed and you're not hunched over the gun, if you're too tense in the neck & shoulders the recoil will knock you around.. Think multiple layer shock absorbers... Starting at wrists then elbows, shoulders etc..

I'm sure I'm pretty locked up when I shoot. Then again I'm really not sure how much I should try to stiffen my wrists, elbows, shoulders etc. I always thought more is better.

I think I'll try some more vids tomorrow with my elbows bent more. Someone else noted trying with my elbows out more. Harder to lock them when they are out. I'm betting I shoot with them pretty close together.

[tackdr1ver]

Wrists should be pretty stiff, elbows and shoulders should not be locked & act like shock absorbers.

Also, it looks like you're hunching over a bit. It is fine to get an aggresive stance but try to avoid drooping your head/neck to the gun..

this is me shooting a string of a classifier, I try and keep my head in the same spot through the draws/mag changes. Also check the arms wrists:

[CHA-LEE]

You are going to get many different answers to this question. For me I like to shoot with a "straight" arms and not allow my elbows to flex to absorb the recoil. In order for the "Stright" arm method to work your stance MUST be solid as your legs are now doing the work of absorbing the recoil. If you shoot with stright arms and you feel like your whole upper body is rocking back and forth then you know your stance is not optimial.

I use to shoot with bent arms and allow the elbows to obsorb the recoil. This worked but I found that when shooting super fast the up/down and front/back bouncing of the gun would lead to inconsistent hit quality. Switching over to the straight arms method allows the gun to track a lot more consistently resulting in better hit quality. But it did take me a whole shooting season to change my stance properly in order to support the straight arm shooting style.

The key in the straight arms method of shooting isn't to lock out your elbows. It is to simply push your arms out just enough that your arm muscles are not supporting the weight or motion of the recoil. The easiest way to find the stright arm sweet spot is to grip your gun normally, then touch the muzzle to a wall and step back a little so your body weight is leaning into the wall through the tip of the gun. When you are in this "Leaning against the wall" state, simply push the gun forward slowly until you find the exact place where you are no longer using arm muscles to hold you up. If you find the correct spot it takes virtually zero arm muscle effort to hold yourself up in this situation. If you feel like you need arm muscle strength to keep you held into place then your arms are still too bent.

Just remember that a stright arm style REQUIRES a solid stance to work. In your video it looks like your stance is not optimal and that is why you are rocking back and forth with each shot.

[AlexOsensei]

@CHA-LEE u r a great resource!!

[Psynapse]

Thanks for the advice.

Man tackdr1ver... you look like how I'd like to feel behind the gun... if that makes any sense.

I did some more training and it turns out I do tense up my shoulders and elbows quite a bit. Even with bent elbows I'm locking them up pretty hard. And my shoulders are pretty solid. It's like it trying to stop all recoil dead. Which ends up feeling like each recoil pulse goes right through me. But when I relax them it feels like the gun is all over the place. Especially when I bend my arms too much.

With hunching over it seems that the more my arms are locked out in front of me the more I have to duck down to get behind the gun. I'm doing a pile of dry fire to get used to keeping my head up and moving nothing but my arms on the draw. The way I was positioned was not relaxing in any way. Too tense. And simply tiring.

Cha-lee... I'mm going to try this first thing when I get home. Makes sense to me.

[Flexmoney]

I always thought more is better.

Try it a different way, see if you get different results.

Also, have you tried Matt Burkett's timing drill ? (google)

[Psynapse]

I have heard of the timing drill and I'm going to try that again FOR SURE. This is something I really need to get worked out. I can shoot groups and even impress myself sometimes but IPSC isn't about shooting groups.

Something I just found out tonight with the help of my 11 year old... The way I am crouching my head down and locking my arms out I'm not able to lock my weak hand wrist out as much as when I lift my head. With my head crouched down and arms straight my forearm is almost parallel to the bore axis. When I lift my head I need to raise the gun a bit and this changes the angle of my wrist. Sure noticed a difference with my kid smacking the dustguard simulating upward recoil.

But enough over thinking... time to burn some ammo on timing drills and watching my arm and head positions.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Get a Video from the other side please.

Recoil control is primarily in that left wrist. Lock your left wrist out with your hand pointing downward at 45 degrees in relationship to your arm. Get your hands as high up on the gun as possible and grip the heck out of the gun with the left hand keeping the right hand relaxed enough to not have your grip pressure influence your trigger press.

Edited November 24, 2012 by Jesse Tischauser

[Psynapse]

Updates:

I did some more drills trying to not hunch down and not rolling my shoulders forward. As well trying to keep my elbows out more rather than pointing down.

This does seem to help out. This vid shows a pace of about .5 splits shooting all alphas at 15 yards.

Sorry for the blurry-ness... I was alone and it looked in focus on the small screen at the range.

[Psynapse]

I made a combined still shot of how high the muzzle climbs on recoil. Not sure if this is bad or not. I'm sure I read somewhere that your front sight should not raise off the target during recoil. At 15 yards... mine does. For me the target disappears on recoil.

Also I noticed in watching the above vid, the slow motion part, that the gun seems a little "bouncy" when the slide closes. Could I have too stiff a recoil spring in there or is it just the guy behind the gun?

[grapemeister]

From an average B class shooter, everything looks good. Muzzle flip or rise is natural, and appears to be normal in the video. Somebody gave you some bad info or there was a misunderstanding about the muzzle and sights not rising. You should be seeing the front sight rise out of the notch or at least the intial lift, then see the sights return to the notch and back on target. The vertical distance the sight rises will decrease as your strength, and technique improves over time. Looking good dude. I would say that you're being too hard on yourself, but I'm very guilty of that. And, it's probably a good thing!

[CHA-LEE]

Use straighter arms. Your elbows are still flexing during recoil causing excessive wobbling of the gun after the shot.

[blairmckenzie1]

For what its worth from another B shooter, there is so many other things you can work on to become a better shooter. Dont get too caught up on recoil control. Or any one specific thing in particular. Its expecially hard for me not to get stuck on one thing this time of year when the weather sucks and I don't get to shoot as much. A lot of small gains add up in the long run for me.

[toothguy]

[ktm300]

The drill that starts at about 6:30 has helped me a lot in tracking my sights. I don't think about anything but I observe (from Brians Book) the sight and know how far the sight gets over the target on every shot and let my observation control the trigger. From trying this for about an hour one day I went from not being able to see the sight all the way through the arc to being able to track it and put shots in the same spot over and over.

[Psynapse]

Thanks for the tip guys. Really appreciated.

I actually found some old footage of a steel stage where I had to hunch down to shoot through a port. As a result I ended up with my arms a lot straighter that Ive been shooting lately. And in that footage I was able to shoot a lot faster as the gun wasn't bouncing around as much. It seems I got caught up in trying to NOT lock my arms up so much that I took it too far. But I'm still trying.

And trying even harder to make up time in other places. Reloads I'm super happy with. Draws to target are getting quicker. Transitions are coming along. But my next big real hurdle is shooting on the move.

In the mean time... I now have Brians book and I'm going to try the timing drills next range trip.