bbbean Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 I've only been an RO for a few years, but when I started, I used to have to remind shooters to actually show clear, instead of treating ULSC as a speed event. But at the last few big matches I've worked, I've noticed that well over 1/2 the shooters I run not only take the time to show clear, but actually stick an open slide towards me to be SURE I've seen clear. In my opinion, this is a good thing. So, the question is, did a memo go out telling people to do this for safety reasons, or because the CRO from MO is blind as a bat? BB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFlowers Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 I think its because more and more conversation between ROs has been on this subject and making shooters do it again. So maybe the message is getting out... slow down and lets all just be sure we are safe! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poortrader Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 I had the other half at FN 3G that treated ULSC as a speed event. I made then do it again, slowly. I hope they they are reading these posts. It definitely makes the ROs jobs easier when they lock the slide back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMC Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 I have noticed that most of the top guys will do it slow so the RO can see. I see it as respect for the RO and rules. I've RO'd lots of folks at local clubs who seem to see the action as a way to show off how well they can flip a round up in the air and catch it or do some other flourish with the gun. Cute but I don't care, I just want to make sure the guy is safe. If I'm the RO and they do it too fast, they will do it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Thats why the commands are "IF clear hammer down and holster" Its on the shooter to be clear. With that said I when I'm ROing I like to see a clear gun as well. If you treat it like a speed event chances are you have pulled the trigger before I can get any words out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBoss Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 @bbbean as the RO you want the range to be safe, however it is the shooters responsibility to unload and show clear. After all, if it goes bang, they go home. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbbean Posted October 1, 2012 Author Share Posted October 1, 2012 @bbbean as the RO you want the range to be safe, however it is the shooters responsibility to unload and show clear. After all, if it goes bang, they go home. I understand how a DQ works. I'm just a happier RO if I can actually see clear. I never saw a match improved by a DQ. BB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 I've always been of the opinion that "show clear" as a range command meant I wasn't supposed to do anything until I got another command. I both show the gun and wait for "if clear" and expect to be given the same courtesy. I've not been an RO long enough to run into somebody that races through without waiting for the "if clear", but I'd not hesitate to reiterate the "unload and show clear" if the meaning of "i]show[/i] clear" is seemingly lost on a competitor. BTW, I flip the round in the air and lock back the slide in the same movement, catch the round (most of the time) and wait with the gun in a position that the RO can see into the ejection port. So, it is possible to combine "flourish" with showing clear. Never gotten a complaint on that but I have had ROs mention how close to the vertical 180 my reload is (I'm aware, thanks... it'd have to be pointing at my head to break the 180). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuflehundon Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 This is something I do, but it's a hold over from the Marines. You always checked clear yourself, and then showed clear to the RSO's. Did it that way for so many years that it's just habit now. All of the military shooters I know that do USPSA or IDPA do it that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 I had to DQ a friend of mine who rushed the procedure, by neglecting to drop the mag, and followed that up by not waiting for "If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster." That taught me to take it slow, and make sure the mags out and the chamber's empty.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OUshooter Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 I've seen it, but never RO'd it when they race through the ULSC and drop the pistol in the holster. It's also not uncommon to do what's been mentioned which is to slow them down and do it again. Never have had to repeat that for the same shooter in 1 match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
de03x7 Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 I had to DQ a friend of mine who rushed the procedure, by neglecting to drop the mag, and followed that up by not waiting for "If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster." That taught me to take it slow, and make sure the mags out and the chamber's empty.... I would agree that the shooter should be DQed if this happened but, RO:IYAFUASC Shooter: Rack bang RO:Stop DQ for AD Shooter: I was making up a miss. You never gave ICHDH Where do you go from here. Unless the round hit the ground at his feet can you be sure he wasn't shooting at a target? I'm not sure that I like the command as writen. The SHOW CLEAR is what bothers me.If the shooter is required to show a clear gun to the RO shouldn't the RO be DQed for not making sure that the gun was clear also? In your example the shooter rushed and didn't show clear so it is all on him but if he shows you the gun shouldn't you own it also? What if he shows the gun and you see a round in the chamber that he missed, do you point it out or is that coaching? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OUshooter Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 (edited) I had to DQ a friend of mine who rushed the procedure, by neglecting to drop the mag, and followed that up by not waiting for "If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster." That taught me to take it slow, and make sure the mags out and the chamber's empty.... I would agree that the shooter should be DQed if this happened but, RO:IYAFUASC Shooter: Rack bang RO:Stop DQ for AD Shooter: I was making up a miss. You never gave ICHDH Where do you go from here. Unless the round hit the ground at his feet can you be sure he wasn't shooting at a target? I'm not sure that I like the command as writen. The SHOW CLEAR is what bothers me.If the shooter is required to show a clear gun to the RO shouldn't the RO be DQed for not making sure that the gun was clear also? In your example the shooter rushed and didn't show clear so it is all on him but if he shows you the gun shouldn't you own it also? What if he shows the gun and you see a round in the chamber that he missed, do you point it out or is that coaching? 8.3.7 “If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster” – After issuance of this command, the competitor is prohibited from firing (see Rule 10.4.3). While continuing to point the handgun safely downrange, the competitor must perform a final safety check of the handgun as follows: 8.3.7.1 Self-loaders – release the slide and pull the trigger (without touching the hammer or decocker, if any). 32 • USPSA Handgun Rules, January 2008 Edition 8.3.7.2 Revolvers – close the empty cylinder (without touching the hammer, if any). 8.3.7.3 If the gun proves to be clear, the competitor must holster his handgun. 8.3.7.4 If the gun does not prove to be clear, the Range Officer will resume the commands from Rule 8.3.6 (also see Rule 10.4.3). 8.3.8 “Range Is Clear” – This declaration signifies the end of the Course of fire. Once the declaration is made, officials and competitors may move forward to score, patch, reset targets etc. I would argue that unless the RO can prove the competitor wasn't engaging a target, post IYAFUASC then there is no DQ. Seems a DQ would only come if the competitor ran afoul of a condition in 10.4 post-IYAFUASC but pre-ICHDH. Edited October 2, 2012 by OUshooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OUshooter Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Also, IMO: 1. A command change isn't going to help the situation any. 2. The onus is always on the shooter to conduct themselves, and handle their handgun in a safe manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadarTech Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 I just recently took my RO class with Arthur Brown. Great class by the way! Anyway to the point... One Thing he covered is why the command is now IF clear hammer down , holster.... At a big match, (I can't remember if is was Nationals or a regional, but honestly it does not matter safety is safety...) a shooter had an AD after the old command show clear hammer down holster... The shooter then went to arbitration and said the RO said it was clear so it is not my fault..... Well he won the arbitration..... Now, I am banking that if you DQ a shooter for an AD after the IF you are finished command starts and he/she is privy to the rules, you will get overuled.... As Arthur told us... Don't let it bother you.. That is why there is arbitration,,. I bet we wish they had arbitration for those recent NFL refs..... True story at a local match several months ago.... I counted my rounds as I fired the stage and got to a point where something wasn't right.. The RO said if you are finished.. And it hit me that I missed 2 paper targets and a popper just to my left thru a port... Jumped back, fired 5... And then dropped the mag and racked showed clear....as we walked back we both got a good chuckle.... Sometimes it can get real interesting..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OUshooter Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 I had to DQ a friend of mine who rushed the procedure, by neglecting to drop the mag, and followed that up by not waiting for "If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster." That taught me to take it slow, and make sure the mags out and the chamber's empty.... I've seen this multiple times where a legitimate shot was fired, usually at standing steel, after the IYAFUASC but before ICHDH. No DQ's have ever been given, but if that was the wrong call then it needs corrected for any future occurrences. As the RO I won't initiate the ICHDH command until I have seen an empty chamber, with no mag in the gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 I had to DQ a friend of mine who rushed the procedure, by neglecting to drop the mag, and followed that up by not waiting for "If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster." That taught me to take it slow, and make sure the mags out and the chamber's empty.... I would agree that the shooter should be DQed if this happened but, RO:IYAFUASC Shooter: Rack bang RO:Stop DQ for AD Shooter: I was making up a miss. You never gave ICHDH Where do you go from here. Unless the round hit the ground at his feet can you be sure he wasn't shooting at a target? I'm not sure that I like the command as writen. The SHOW CLEAR is what bothers me.If the shooter is required to show a clear gun to the RO shouldn't the RO be DQed for not making sure that the gun was clear also? In your example the shooter rushed and didn't show clear so it is all on him but if he shows you the gun shouldn't you own it also? What if he shows the gun and you see a round in the chamber that he missed, do you point it out or is that coaching? Depending on circumstances, this might not be a DQ now -- but this incident occurred prior to the 2004 rulebook, at which time it was a clear cut DQ during unloading.... Cited more for the observational lesson -- should probably slow down, the clock's stopped in any event -- than for a rules discussion.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 I would argue that unless the RO can prove the competitor wasn't engaging a target, post IYAFUASC then there is no DQ. Seems a DQ would only come if the competitor ran afoul of a condition in 10.4 post-IYAFUASC but pre-ICHDH. There was a solid stockade fence directly (12 inches from muzzle?) in front of the competitor, no target in sight, and the round send splinters flying..... The competitor was ready for the DQ before I was, he wanted nothing to do with shooting for the rest of the day.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sin-ster Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Don't discount the fact that the most commonly viewed Super Stars have a really cool ULSC procedure on their videos-- and almost all of them include a nifty way of holding the slide open for the RO to inspect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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