Forcing activation of prop at level 2

[38SuperDub]

Nik

I've said my peace. Talked with Sam and I have no beef with the match. Just hope everyone can learn.

A couple facts though.

1) the wsb posted on the stage DID NOT say it had to be activated first

2) the RO talk track was printed WITHOUT saying they had to be activated first

3)it was hand written that they had to be activated first on the RO talk track

That's the most confusing part for me. Why was I written? When was it written? Can you see how this makes things weird? So the first few squads were told they had to. By who? Someone who wasn't following the wsb or the talk track.

That being said. The match was fun. I appreciate the hard work everyone put in to make it that way!

[hopalong]

ktm300

Thank you.

On range commands this is what I typically do.

Before the first shot fired on RO day I remind them there are rule books in every stage box(didn't get to @ this match as I was doing other RM stuff that morning)emphasizing the point that if they are not sure to take a look again. During shooting on all days I go by every stage before the first shot fired and remind them to use proper range commands(did do this). During shooting I make it a point to go by every stage (even the on my wife was running ) and watch them run a complete squad(did this). (During this time I did correct a few of them). After doing that a few times I can tell which ones I might need to hang around a little longer and watch. Even then there will be a few missed. I'm now going to print off some cheat cards to hand out to help people remember.

Hopalong

[beltjones]

ktm300

Thank you.

On range commands this is what I typically do.

Before the first shot fired on RO day I remind them there are rule books in every stage box(didn't get to @ this match as I was doing other RM stuff that morning)emphasizing the point that if they are not sure to take a look again. During shooting on all days I go by every stage before the first shot fired and remind them to use proper range commands(did do this). During shooting I make it a point to go by every stage (even the on my wife was running ) and watch them run a complete squad(did this). (During this time I did correct a few of them). After doing that a few times I can tell which ones I might need to hang around a little longer and watch. Even then there will be a few missed. I'm now going to print off some cheat cards to hand out to help people remember.

Hopalong

It sounds like you run a pretty tight ship, and an unfortunate situation occurred. Oh well. I also get that the stage took considerable thought to design, and considerable effort to set up. This should serve as a lesson to ROs in that they need to stick to the script and the written stage briefing and not freestyle and try to interpret the intentions of the stage designers when giving instructions.

[Flexmoney]

Question:

Can a level 2 match force you to activate a wide open visible target prior to engaging it?

No, but sorta.

I could write a Procedure that requires you to do an act...like pull a lever, THEN engage targets in a freestyle manner.

[38SuperDub]

Ahh that is creative Kyle. Or have a door activate things. Or a port that when you opened it activated everything.

[DrawandDuck]

Like, stomp on the rattle snake (a rubber one for most shooters)laying on the stomp pad prior to engaging targets through port....

Edited October 2, 2012 by DrawandDuck

[Flexmoney]

Imposing an FA = IDPA, basically.

I agree. A FA should not be used like a FTDR.

[sperman]

This comment has nothing to do with the match the OP is reffering to, but is a general comment.

I've worked L2 matches where the RM was very involved. They spend the day before the match walking the stages, debugging the WSB, walking the stages again, etc. They send e-mails to the staff before they even leave home for the match, offering advice on range commands, running the stage, etc.

I've also worked matches where I've never even met the RM until I got on the radio and called them to the stage. Based on what I saw when I got to my stage, the RM didn't read the official WSB, and I'm pretty sure they didn't do much of anything before the first shot was fired.

I much prefer working and shooting matches run by the first type of RM.

[Flexmoney]

I agree with Randall that this is a sport not a court of law. However, competitors are held to the division rules 100% with no exceptions. There is a rule book for a reason lets hold everyone to it.

I'm not disagreeing with your position, but if you are going to hold people to the rule book, then you should have arb'd the stage...at the match.

And, if you believe that the staff acted outside of the rule book, then you should file a complaint with NROI (but I don't know if that will hold water...as you didn't arb the stage).

[Poppa Bear]

Based on some of the comments about range commands I also believe that part of the problem with this stage overall was that SOME RO's not knowing the range commands also indicates not being up to date on the rules. Knowing the rules tends to also increase the RO's knowledge of proper stage design and function.

It could be that several RO's noticed that the target could be engaged prior to activating the plate but not being up to date on the rules did not question it. We all make mistakes and do not see the forest through the trees on some stages, but that is why we try to have the RO's shoot through first so that some of these problems can be seen with a fresh set of eyes.

Those same eyes need to not be afraid to question the legality of a stage. You might learn something you did not know about design. You might bring up a problem that the designer did not anticipate. As the saying goes: "The only STUPID question is the one you did not ask"

Hind sight is 20/20. I believe that given the chance to do it all over again everyone would have been much happier if this design flaw could have been corrected before anyone shot the stage.

Thanks to this thread, many more people will pay attention to target availability and activation.

[38SuperDub]

I know arbing it was the move but I didn't want the stage thrown. It was a fun stage. I dealt with it. I shot it (poorly lol). And I had fun.

I think discussions like this are good. Maybe this will bring something to someone's awareness going forward. I know I have read a lot on here that made me go back and read the rule book and was like wow I never saw that rule that way. The way we all get better is to improve on past experiences.

[ktm300]

I know I have read a lot on here that made me go back and read the rule book and was like wow I never saw that rule that way.

I have read threads that when they started I thought I understood something but my understanding was superficial at best. Reading all of the opinions let me know there was a lot more to it than I got from reading the book.