Is my HK USP Expert Legal /Approved for USPSA

[jkushner1]

Hello Guys:

I just read alot of posts in the IPSC/USPSA rules section regarding approved guns. Very interesting was some the posts by Bucky and Dave O. regarding production division equipment rules.

Anyway Gents:

Is my HK USP Expert 9mm approved for Production class, if not is it legal for USPSA limited ?.

The USPSA's Approved gun list reads (for HK):

"H&K USP, USP Compact, USP Custom Sport, VP70Z, P9S (only with 100mm barrel), P8, P2000 , P7".

On the HKPRO Website, I found an excerpt that read:

" There is also a west coast contingent of the HK Shooting Team, made up of veteran master shooters Bruce Gray and Mike Boyd. They primarily compete with the USP Expert in .40 caliber in USPSA/IPSC competitions, though Mike is the current California IDPA champion. We will soon have photos of them, to include on the page here".

I believe they were shooting Limited though with HK Hi Cap mags.

SO at some point they were permitted in either limited or production - but then I read Bucky's post about Bruce Gray being DQ'd for the magwell on his Expert in prodution. Was his gun the US import version without HK's Jet Funnel or did Bruce have the Jet funnel on his gun.

I emailed John Amidon for an answer - he'll probably think It's a trick by Bruce Grey and that I'm sending the email on behalf of Bruce - which I'm not.

Thanks,

Jon

__________________

Jkushner1

[davidwiz]

If you have "illegal" equipment on a Production gun, isn't the penalty shooting Open? Here is the list of USPSA approved Production guns. The list seems to be quite detailed, as it has USP, USP Compact and USP Custom Sport. If the USP Expert was to be included, either it would be by name or they would have just listed USP to include all the variants. As for USPSA Limited, as long as HK made more than 500 copies, which they did, then your USP Expert is good to go.

US Production Gun List

Entries in red represent USPSA additions to, or changes from the IPSC World Body List.

ARCUS 98

ARMS MORAVIA G2000

ASAI AG onePRO

ASTRA A75, A100

BAIKAL MP446

BERETTA 92 Series full size frame (including 92, 92D, 92DS, 92 F, 92FS, 92S, 92SB, 92SB-F, 92G-SD, 92FS Brigadier, 92FS Deluxe, 92G, 92G Elite, 92G Elite II, 92 FS Centurion, 92D Centurion,92G Centurion, 92 Stock, 92 EL) 92 Series Compact frame (including 92L Compact, 92SB Compact, 92 L Compact type M, 92SB compact type M, 92 Custom Carry) 96 Series full size frame (including 96, 96D, 96DS, 96G, 96 Brigadier, 96 D Brigadier, 96G Brigadier, 96G Elite, 96G Elite II, 96G-SD, 96 Centurion,96D Centurion, 96 Stock) 96 Series Compact frame (including 96L Compact, 96L Compact type M, 96D Compact, 96D Compact Type M) 98 Series (including 98F, 98FS, 98FS Brigadier, 98 Deluxe, 98 Stock) Vertec series (including 92G, 92FS, 92 Elite 1A, 92 Steel, 96G, 96FS, 96 Elite 1A, 96 Steel, 98 Steel) Cougar Series (including 8000 D/DL/FL/LP/Mini, 8040 D/F/Mini, 8045 D/F/Mini, 8357 D/F) 9000S Series (including Type D & F) - no single-action only variants or laser equipped models allowed - Inox versions of approved models allowed

BERNADELLI 2000, 2000 Baby

BERSA Thunder 9/Thunder 40, Mini T9/T40

BROWNING BDM, BDA

BUL Impact, Storm

COLT 2000, Double Eagle (revolver models must be 5" models or less) , USPSA:

Barrels up to 8.5 inches permitted

CZ CZ 75 (all SA/DA and DAO models), 85 (all models), 97-B, 99, 100, 101, 110, P-01

DAEWOO DP51, DH40

DESERT EAGLE Eagle, Eagle Compact

DLASK 226 clone

EAA Witness (standard steel), Witness-P, Witness (decocker), Witness PS

FEG P9R, P9RK

GLOCK 17, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 26, 27 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 36 (No "L" or "C" models are legal), 37, 34, 35 USPSA: C models are allowed providing that the barrel is non-ported and the other requirements are met.

GRAND POWER K100

H&K USP, USP Compact, USP Custom Sport, VP70Z, P9S (only with 100mm barrel), P8, P2000 , P7

IMI Barak 9, Barak 40, Barak 45

JERICHO 941F (all models)

KAHR K Series (9mm,40cal, Lady & Elite), MK Series (9mm, 40cal, Micro & Elite), P

Series (9mm and 40 cal), PM Series (9mm), T Series (Target & Tactical), TP Series

KEL-TEC P11, P40

LLAMA M-82

MAGNUM RESEARCH SP21 (9mm,40SW,45ACP)

MANURHIN MR73 revolvers (3" G3 and 4" G4 models only)

NORINCO NC 226, NZ 75, NZ 85, NP 22, NP 34

PARA-ORDNANCE LDA (all models)

REPUBLIC ARMS Patriot

RUGER P85, P89, KP89, P90, KP90, P91, KP93, P94, P95, K94/95, KP95, P97 GP100 (revolver models must be 5" models or less) , USPSA: Barrels up to 8.5 inches permitted

S&W 410, 439, 908, 910, 39, 1006, 1066, 3913, 3913L, 3953, 3913TSW 3953STSW, 4013TSW, 4053TSW, 4006/4043, 4046, 4513TSW, 4553TSW, 457, 4506, 4566, 4586, 59, 5904, 5906, 5946, 659, 6906, 6946, SW99, 686P - Revolver models must be 5" models or less: 10, 13, 14, 27, 29, 586, 625, 627, 629 , USPSA: Barrels up to 8.5 inches permitted

SIG P220, P220-1, P225, P226, P228, P229, P239, SP2009, SP2340, 226 Sport II SL ohne Schiene

SIGMA Compact SW9V, SW40W, SW40VE, SW9VE, SW9M

SPHINX 2000 (Models S, P, PS, and H), 3000 Standard, 3000 Tactical, 3000 Competition Production

SPRINGFIELD P9 , XD Models

STAR Megastar, M30, Ultrastar

STEYR M-A1, M9, S9, M40, S40

TANFOGLIO Force 38, Force 38F Carry, Force 38F, Force 38L, Force 40, Force 40F Carry, Force 40F, Force 40L, Force 40R Carry, Force 40R, Force 45, Force 45F Carry, Force 45F, Force 45L, Force 45R Carry, Force 45R, Force 921, Force 921F Carry, Force 921F, Force 921L, Force 921R Carry, Force 921R, Force Compact 40, Force Compact 45, Force Compact 921, Force Pro, GT10, GT21 Baby, GT21 Combat, GT21, GT23, GT40 Baby, GT40 Combat, GT40, GT45, P19 Combat, P19 Standard, P19L, P21 Combat, P21L, P23, P23L, P38L, P40 Compact, P40, P40, P40F, P40FB, P40L, P40R, P41, P45, P45L, P45L, Stock Custom, T94F, T94R, T95F Stock, T95F, T95R, T96F, T96R, T97F, T97L, T97R, TA10 Compact, TA10, TA40FB, TA45 Compact, TA45, TA90 XL2, XL4

TAURUS PT92, PT911, PT99, PT940, PT945, P945 (except "C" models), PT100, PT101, PT111, PT140, PT145, PT921, 827, M66, 817, 627 (revolver models must be 5" models or less), 24/7 , USPSA: Barrels up to 8.5 inches permitted

VEKTOR SP1, SP2(not Single Action), Z88

WALTHER P99, P99QA, P88, P88 Compact, P38, P5

WITNESS Witness, Polymer, Subcompact (not carry comp, Gold, Silver team, Limited)

ZASTAVA CZ99

Edited August 13, 2004 by davidwiz

[.40AET]

Yes, your USP is legal in Limited. However, you can only declare minor for PF. Not that it can't be done, but you would be at a disadvantage shooting that gun in Limited.

USPSA Rules:

Minimum caliber=9x19

Mimimum caliber for major power factor is 10mm (.40 inches)

[Kingman]

USP expert has to long of a barrel to get approved. I think.

[Vince Pinto]

USP expert has to long of a barrel to get approved.  I think.

For IPSC Production Division, correct. The Expert barrel is 5.2" long, but the maximum permitted is 5".

BTW, note that some of the models quoted above (e.g. Glock 34, Glock 35 & H&K P7) should be in red, because they are only approved for use at USPSA matches.

[davidwiz]

Thanks Vince, I missed some colouring on my post. Fixed it.

[Kingman]

Bonus points for me.

A rule I actually know. Too bad it does not apply to me.

[Bucky]

Bonus points for me.

A rule I actually know. Too bad it does not apply to me.

Actually if I remember correctly, Bruce Gray shot L-10 at the 2002 Factory Gun Nationals because John Amidon told him that it wasn't eligible for Production Division.

[jkushner1]

Thanks Bucky:

I'm heading up to O.B. to shoot steel in the morning. I think that A.D. was caused by me shooting Production almost exclusively lately. When I was bring the Colt 38 Sooper up from low ready. I think my muscle memory went into to override and since I'm used to the long travel of the LDA trigger, went bang too soon. Fist time that happened, I hope its the last. Bottom line, wasnt acceptable AND I should have shot my LDA at RAF to avoid the same.

Thanks,

JOn

[jkushner1]

Guys:

Robin, at USPSA sent me an email which said that since the Expert was not speficially listed, it was therefore probably not legal or approved for production but would probably be legal in Limited 10. I really wanted to shoot the gun in production, and to say that it is greatly advantaged over the sigs, glocks, beretta's is not realistic nor is .2 " of bbl length (.3" shorter than G-34/35 and I don't get to use an extended mag and extended slide release nor a tungsten guide rod). It may be listed on the new approved gun list (green book) that has a mysterious release date, but is still not out. As to Barrel length the current USPSA Appendix E under "Production Class" has no Max Barrel Length - the gun does fit in the box and it is 8.74 " long and the box is 8.75".

So it seems more polcitical and administrative than anything else that its precluded from production class. This is only my hunch.

See you later,

Jon

[davidwiz]

I don't understand the "probably be legal for Limited 10". L10 is just like Limited. As long as 500 copies were made (i.e. not a prototype), and it doesn't have a comp or optic, you're good to go - you just have to load only 10rnd in the mag. Under what possible rule would the USP Expert not be legal for L10 or Limited?

[diehli]

Email John Amidon and ask that it be approved for Production use (without the magwell).

[.40AET]

A bit of a drift, but anyway. How does IPSC handle slight model variances in production? IE (FOR REAL) A guy that I brought out this past weekend to try out shooting brought a Sig 226ST. It's a 226 with a solid stainless steel body. Will that gun be allowed under the Sig 226 stamp of approval? You would think that the list would make it all black and white.

[Flexmoney]

You would think that the list would make it all black and white.

Are you saying that it is clearly a Production gun...but not on "the list"?

That is one of the problems with list...keeping them updated.

Drop Vince a note. He seems motivated to add guns to the list quickly. Thank him for his hard work

[.40AET]

Flex- The Sig 226 is on the list. The "ST" version is a 226 in stainless steel. It also has an added light rail on the bottom of the dustcover. It weighs more than a standard aluminum framed 226. Someone may bitch about the guns weight. I will drop Vince a note along with my gratitude....I get a headache just thinking about how hard his job is.

And thanks for your time, and everyone elses.

[Vince Pinto]

Aw shucks, guys ........ it's my pleasure to serve you but, hey, that's why I get paid the Big Bucks

Anyway, I'm on to it and I should have the SIG P226ST (and a few others) on the list by the weekend.

That is one of the problems with list...keeping them updated.

Not from next year, when we change the approved list to say "Austrian & German guns only" (and I'll quietly drop the second part when nobody's watching).

BWA-HA-HA

[.40AET]

(and I'll quietly drop the second part when nobody's watching).

YOU'RE KILLIN' ME

[jkushner1]

Flex - I would also like to drop Vince a note for my HK USP Expert, especially as it regards the new book (green book). is he in Serdo Woolley or at the IROA, please provide his contact info.

And now just for fun:

I have Glock G-35 that I am converting to 9mm (or am in the process of converting - installing Bomars, tried the MMC's, a great product, but their very tactical in the design, I was weaned on big square notch and post sights, thus the Bomars), it has a tungsten guide rod with 13 lb spring (I wish they would allow the Sprinco GR's) and a G-meister light trigger spring. I will eventually shoot it in Production at the club level - how would the IROA deal with this one.

[diehli]

Vince probably won't do anything for you on the Expert (barrel length is the issue), but John Amidon would probably add it to the USPSA list.

You cannot change the caliber in the 35 and shoot Production... you'd be forced into Open. His email address (along with everyone else's that you'd be interested in) is under the "USPSA Staff" menu bar link on the USPSA Members' page.

[Flexmoney]

Flex - I would also like to drop Vince a note for my HK USP Expert, especially as it regards the new book (green book). is he in Serdo Woolley or at the IROA, please provide his contact info.

Vince is IPSC, not USPSA. But I am sure he can point you to the right contact people for USPSA's list.

(I don't really want to be involved with the "lists". )

You can send Vince a message by using the PM function of this board. (Though I am sure he will respond to this thread as soon as he gets his sleep.)

[Vince Pinto]

Vince is IPSC, not USPSA.

Now you've really hurt my feelings. I'm USPSA too (Member B7), but I'm just not an official.

And sleep? Me?? Naaaaah. Sleep is for wimps. I just occasionally close my eyes as part of my tantric exercises

I (pinto@ipsc.org) manage the IPSC Production List and John Amidon (vpuspsa@aol.com) uses that list as his base to add other models approved solely for matches held in the USA.

Hope this helps.

[Flexmoney]

Opps...sorry about that Vince (but, it might help if you SHOT a match. )

[Vince Pinto]

Hey, this one time at Band Camp, er sorry, this one time in Oregon, I spent the day just patching targets and resetting steel for the competitors at a USPSA affiliated club.

Doesn't that count for at least one cookie?

(Witnesses: T.Chambers, J.Boemler, J.Burnett, E.Maastrich)

[Flexmoney]

You couldn't get away with that here. We'd make you shoot.

[.40AET]

Vince- Did you get the production list ammended already? I checked the USPSA site and the 226ST is on the list. Damn, you're good.