Inconsistent OAL on 9mm

[Rynnäkökivääri 62]

OK I just setup my 9mm conversion kit on my Dillon 650 for the first time, I've had the 9mm kit since I got the press about 1,5 months ago, but I've only reloaded 44mag and .45acp so far. I cast up a few hundred 147gr bullets recently though and I tumble lubed a bunch and was gonna try them in my glock with stock barrel (IGB aftermarket barrel incoming).

Now the bullets drop at .359" from the mold and that's the root cause of my problems, I think. When I jam this rather fat bullet into the case and then into the crimp die, I think the bullet gets stuck in the crimp die and it gets pulled out a bit as it's lowered back out. I tested by crimping one case multiple times and it got progressively longer each time, I managed to go from 1.150" to 1.162" this way. The COAL I desire is 1.145" though.

Once I get my aftermarket barrel I will slug it and get a 9mm die for conventional lubing and sizing of the bullets so they probably won't be as fat in the future, I hope.

Still are there any crimp dies out there that would be more kind towards people using oversized cast bullets, the fatness of this bullet is useful if I wanna use it in a factory barrel.

[Sarge]

Are you sure the crimp die is grabbing the bullet and not squeezing it which would make a bit longer. Maybe you can try just seating and crimping as single stage operation and see if you feel resistance on the upstroke.

.359 That's pretty fat.

[noylj]

I only shoot as-cast bullets myself, but I only need a bullet that big for one Browning Hi-Power.

The first thing to look at is the expander plug. The expander is designed, in the case of 9x19, to expand the case to about 0.353-0.354", since 0.001" under bullet diameter is ideal.

In your case, you almost certainly need a larger expander plug. At the very least, you might want to try a .38 Special plug. You are almost to the size where the Lee 9mm Mak PTD might be good.

Measure the case ID (just past the case mouth flare/bell after expansion) and see what you have and compare to the expander plug OD. You can order a custom plug from Lee.

Many, and I mean MANY, problems with lead bullets can be solved by checking the expander plug and ensuring that the expanded case ID is 0.002-0.001" LESS than bullet OD.

Of course, if you have slugged your barrel, you can try sizing the bullets to 0.001-0.002" over groove diameter. In most 9x19s, the best lead bullet diameter is somewhere between 0.357" and 0.358".

[Rynnäkökivääri 62]

Would you still recommend a bigger expander plug if I size to .356" in the future? Do I want a Lee expander plug if I am running Dillon dies?

I am not sure how the expander plug is responsible for inconsistent OAL though? I can see it causing another issue by maybe making the bullet diameter too small, but OAL issues?

[John Wayne]

Is the die clean inside? Buildup of wax lube will change the oal. The new style Dillon dies are the perfect solution...pull the top pin and clean. Check the crimp die too.

[Rynnäkökivääri 62]

They are clean, they're new dies and this is their first use, I have loaded maybe 10 rounds so far.

EDIT: The seating die produces the same OAL on rounds, I have loaded and checked the rounds after being seated, the OAL is correct there, it's only after crimping that they get longer.

Edited August 14, 2012 by Rynnäkökivääri 62

[Desmo412]

I only shoot as-cast bullets myself, but I only need a bullet that big for one Browning Hi-Power.

The first thing to look at is the expander plug. The expander is designed, in the case of 9x19, to expand the case to about 0.353-0.354", since 0.001" under bullet diameter is ideal.

In your case, you almost certainly need a larger expander plug. At the very least, you might want to try a .38 Special plug. You are almost to the size where the Lee 9mm Mak PTD might be good.

Measure the case ID (just past the case mouth flare/bell after expansion) and see what you have and compare to the expander plug OD. You can order a custom plug from Lee.

Many, and I mean MANY, problems with lead bullets can be solved by checking the expander plug and ensuring that the expanded case ID is 0.002-0.001" LESS than bullet OD.

Of course, if you have slugged your barrel, you can try sizing the bullets to 0.001-0.002" over groove diameter. In most 9x19s, the best lead bullet diameter is somewhere between 0.357" and 0.358".

I'm not really following you on this. What are you referring to as the "expander"? The belling die is meant to just put a flare on the case mouth. I don't see the point of expanding the case further down than a slight bit of belling on the mouth. Wouldn't this affect the tension on the bullet and possibly cause set-back?

[noylj]

The expander die is NOT just for case mouth flaring. All expander dies, except the powderfunnel.com will expand the case over most/all the length of the seated bullet. It should expand the case to within 0.002-0.001" of the bullet diameter. I have attached a picture of a couple of RCBS expander plugs. Notice how there is a length that expands the case and then a very small section that flares the case mouth. Measure the case ID after sizing and then after expanding. You will find that the expander really does expand the case ID. Try it.

Now, I admit that the people writing the die instructions often gloss over case expansion and jump right to case mouth flaring, since that is the step that needs to be carefully adjusted, but there is a real reason why the plug is so long. Also, they seem to assume that ONLY jacketed bullets will be loaded and so skip the critical nature of case expansion for the larger lead bullets.

If you don't properly expand the case for a lead bullet, two things will happen:

the case will be so tight that it will swage the bullet down any you will get barrel leading and inaccuracy

and/or

the bullet, being pushed into a case that is too small, will apply most pressure to the case where the wall is thinnest and you will end up with a bullet that is seated crooked and there will be case bulge on the side with the thinnest walls. Not only won't this be accurate, but it will often prevent chambering--thus, the Lee FCD to "iron" out the bulge.

I estimate that about 80% of the problems I read on line are caused by the "ignorance" to proper case expansion and people keep trying different seating dies and crimps and things that can't help without proper case expansion.

[Rynnäkökivääri 62]

I understand the principle of that and I am looking into having someone making me a custom powder funnel for my Dillon measure that would act like a two-step expander. I don't think it's relevant to my OAL problem though.

[Bob DuBois]

Playing with heavier bullets in 9mm minor. With a 160gn cast round nose 38 Super, miked .357 bullet I was having OAL Problems.

Loading on a Dillon 650 using Lee dies, I prefer Lee's sizer and seating die. Sent the bullet to Lee and for a few bucks they will cut a seating plug to match the nose of the bullet your using. Also had a local machinest make a flat plug for the seating die and use it quite a bit loading cast bullets and have tried 158 Berry Plated bullets sized .357. These have performed well in mine and my friends pistols. These two inserts have helped solved the OAL issue in 9mm minor.

You'll still need to play with the expander, power through die. While mine is not modified it took careful adjustment to get the bell right. It needs to be a little larger when loading cast bullets.

Lee's first stage sizer will size closer to the extractor groove and a little tighter overall than some of the other brands of dies. I've tried the Lee U die in 9mm but at present I'm using a standard Lee sizer and a Lee seating die. Lee's sizer has an excellent design on their primer punch also. Lee's seating die has a knob on the top and small adjustments can be made without breaking the locking nut. Marking the knob with a sharpie speeds adjustment when going to another bullet weight. Lee's locking nuts are weak order the one inch set from Dillon.

At present using a Dillon crimp die but have played with Lee's FCD. Setting OAL at 1.145 to 1.150, mike the bullet seated in the case and subtract .002 for crimp. .002 to .004 is the range for crimp too much crimp can cause accuracy problems as well as loading issues. The first stage sizer holds the bullet, crimp allows it to feed into the chamber.

147 cast bullets, after thousands of rounds had problems with one box of 500 tumbling in my Trojan as well as two Glock 34'S, one of the 34's had a KKM barrel and a friend Les Bear 1911. All miked well and weight was on. Power factor was over 130. I got away from 147 cast bullets, think there's some threads on other people having issues with them also. While I've tried several bullet weights seems the 135 cast and 160 cast work the best for me. Both have good bearing surface and fly great.

[Rynnäkökivääri 62]

I've got my stuff back together now, new custom expander that makes the ID of the case to .355" and bullets are now sized to .356". The problem still persists, the crimp die touches the bullet and pulls it out as the cartridge backs back out of the die.

Can anyone tell me if there's some other design of crimp die, that does not touch the bullet? Or is not as liable to as the dillon one. My problem is likely the profile of the bullet rather than it being fat, it being a 147gr flat nose profile.

[Hi-Power Jack]

The problem persists, the crimp die touches the bullet and pulls it out.

Which powder and how much powder are you putting in there? Enough for

a compacted load? That might "pull the bullet forward"??

[Rynnäkökivääri 62]

Nope I use a light load of 3.6g of N330, no compression at all, I can hear the powder shaking around even. It's definitely the crimp die that causes the OAL variation, I have verified this.

[noylj]

I have never noticed a crimp die touch the bullet, at least NOT a taper crimp die.

At the very least, and for all the frustration you must be feeling, get a Lee taper crimp die just to try a different die.

Have you blackened (Magic Marker or such) the bullet and case to see exactly where it is rubbing, or is the only problem this mysterious bullet pulling from a taper crimp die?

Can you still push the bullet into the case by hand (since the crimp die should be applying almost zero force to pull the bullet out) and is this with every case or only certain cases? I know some cases have very thin walls and they fail the "push test," so I scrap them (not worth setting up a smaller expander plug and they would simply continue to be a problem so out they go).

Wish I could still hear powder rattle around--if I ever could.

Like 99% of the people here, I really wish I could come over to your place and actually see what is going on. There is something "out of whack" to be producing something so weird.

[DougCarden]

Mike the Inner diameter of the crimp die above the crimp area, where the bullet goes into when crimping. I would imagine the .359 bullet is too fat for that area, because most bullets are at most .357 that would normally go through there.....

It may be as easy as having the machinist open up the area above the crimp bevel......

Good luck,

DougC