Rules for carry gun shoot

[m.e.t.]

Purple Thong? Wasn't that Prince tune?

Hey Rhino, This would be a fun side match at WVVPS. We should put the bug in Dave's ear. It would give me a reason to get the Sig out of the truck. After checking the bore for gum wrappers of course...........

[3quartertime]

Hey Rhino, This would be a fun side match at WVVPS. We should put the bug in Dave's ear.

Sounds like fun. We can corner him this weekend.

[Jim Norman]

OK, Not one to complain about drift, but I though this was about rules for a Carry Gun Match.

What, if anything, has been decided should be criteria for divisions or classes or whatever?

We run our annual pocket gun match, but a carry or concealed carry match would be a fun addition to our regular menu. Perhaps use it as a pistol side match to the regular match in lieu of our regular rifle side?

Maybe pick one stage and shoot it after the main match? $5 extra and Lewis payout? Everyone that stays has to help tear it down?

Jim

[Dead Buff]

Sounds like a fun idea - will discuss with the guys this weekend....

Where would a Baby Browning fit in, or will PF still remain?

[rhino]

As far as rules go, you can solve a lot of problems by requiring the use a real carry holster. You won't eliminate high cap limited guns or even proted gun, but so what? There are people who carry both on a daily basis.

In the end, does it really matter what someone ELSE shoots? Unless there is big $$$ on the line, I don't see why it matters if some people choose to not use a "real" carry gun.

Probably the most effective way of controlling the equipment is to require pre-approval of the gun and holster by the match director. It may be arbitrary and capricious, but it's a sure fire way to keep race guns out of the mix if one person can reject or accept.

[Vince Pinto]

If you guys wanna make it really tough and eliminate the foo-foo guns, call it an "Ankle Carry" match.

Now that'll limit the choices

[Wakal]

Nifty idea...if the holster isn't scratched/scraped/dinged/worn/crusty, then it isn't an every-day carry holster...

EDIT AFTER VINCE POSTED: no, I'm pretty sure Rhino can ankle carry a Desert Eagle

A

PS I have seen Liota inadvertently conceal a Open gun...in a race holster...and four mags. Wearing a large sweatshirt over her race rig, she was asked SEVERAL TIMES by innocent bystanders when she was going to arm up, as well as to why she didn't have a gun on if she was going to shoot...

A

[Dead Buff]

Since my CR Speed is one of the more comfortable rigs I have, I'll pitch with that and the Baby Browning...hope its OK?!?!

[Scooter]

How about this, equipment must not print. All equipment must remain on the person and concealed at all times unless instructed by a RO. So if you want to conceal your IPSC rig with a big jacket. Fine, jacket stays on through the entire match even if it is 100 degrees. Just look at IDPA matches, most people take off their vest the second they finish shooting.

A more controversial method is to divide people by body size. Big people can conceal big guns much easier than small people.

[Jim Norman]

Can I suggest that in order to get the ball rolling we need some definitions.

What is a Carry Gun? Any gun I can carry in any manner? A gun that can be concealed? What do we mean by concealment?

I would respectfully suggest that a definition have a barrel length restriction and a sight restriction.

Pick some common guns, G-27/27, S&W Model 60 snubby, others. Set them as a standard. Look in Shooter's Bible or some other reference and make sure that you don't eliminate a large portion of your shooters by setting the standard at say 2" when a lot of small revolers are say 2-1/8"

Then make the match holsterless, unless you are in an area that allows CCW. This will allow more of your people to shoot what they already own. It will also reduce your safety exposure since you won't have a lot of people that care drawing from small tight holsters at your match for the first time.

You can deliniate between revolver and Semi-Auto as well as short and medium barrel length for 4 Divisions. Restrict your stage size to what a reasonable person would actually carry. Say 15 rounds or less. That allows for a 5-shot revolver with two reloads or almost any Semi with one or at most two reloads.

Just a few ideas.

Jim

[DogmaDog]

It sounds like you just want to shoot an IDPA match.

I'd say use the IDPA rules, and don't try to reinvent the wheel. Or you could use IDPA division and equipment rules, and USPSA target and scoring rules.

Whatever.

DogmaDog

[Jim Norman]

The question originally was what rules to use for a carry gun match. Neither IDPA or USPSA/IPSC really address this. IDPA comes close, but they have allowed rather large guns as into Back-up Gun Division if I understand certain reports to be true.

Either scoring system will work. It is the equipment more than anything that we need to address.

Most of us, were we to carry probably would not carry a full size 1911 double stack .45 we'd carry something light enough not to drown us if we fell in and powerfull enough to do the job. Probably not really want to shoot it 100's of rounds if it were truly light enough and poerfull enough. S&W Airweight with full power .357 Mag anyone?

I know I don't want to shoot 150 rounds out of that in a short order!

So define the guns, define the gear and the stages and have fun.

Jim

[Neil Beverley]

First of all a disclaimer! I'm not trying to kick off a debate to argue about divisions.

I'm not intending to start a flame war and I don't want to be feel the heat coming back at me!

However, an IPSC dinosaur friend of mine has often argued that IPSC Modified Division is the most practical of the divisions and to a large degree because the gun has to fit "in the box". The max size of the gun is thus determined. Providing it fits the box you have quite a lot of scope to mod the gun. Such mods are still restricted to a (arguably) concealable size.

[DogmaDog]

Here are IDPA's rules for BUG division.

From IDPA's Website:

BACK-UP GUN DIVISION

Handguns permitted in BACK-UP GUN division may be single or double action and either pistol or revolver and be of .32 auto, .380 ACP, 9x19mm, .38 Special, .357 Magnum, .40 S&W, 10mm, .45 ACP and meet the following criteria:

Pistols must have a barrel length of 3.8? or less (factory installed cone style barrels with or without a barrel bushing are permitted), revolvers a barrel length of 3? or less. Maximum (total) number of rounds that may be loaded into the handgun is five (5).

NON-INCLUSIVE list of handguns permitted: (These are just examples of handguns that meet BACK-UP GUN division requirements and is NOT meant to be a definitive list of approved handguns.)

ACCU-TEK AT-32, AT-380, CP 9/40/45, HC-380, BL-9, AMT .380 & .45 Back-up, Beretta 3032 Tomcat, 84/85/86 Cheetah, Browning BDA 380, Colt Detective Spl, DS-11, Pony, Pocketlite, Mustang, Officers Model, Defender, CZ CZ-83, EAA Witness European, Witness Polymer, Windicator, Glock 26, 27, 29, 30, Heritage Stealth, Kahr K9, K40, MK9, Para Ordnance P10, P12, Rossi 877/677, 68/88, Ruger SP101, Sig P230, P232, P239, Smith & Wesson 10, 19, 66, 36, 37, 38, 60, 442, 637, 638, 639, 640, 642, 3913, 3953, 4513, 4553,

457, 6906, 6946, SW380, SW9M, Springfield Armory Ultra Compact, Taurus 85, 605, 606, PT938, PT111, Walther PP, PPK, PPK/S, Wilson Sentinel

INCLUSIVE list of permitted modifications: (If it?s not on this list, it can?t be used in Defensive Pistol competition.)

Revolvers:

· Change of sights to another conventional notch and post type

· Change of grips to another style or material that is similar to factory configuration (no weighted grips)

· Action work to enhance trigger pull as long as safety is maintained

· Bob hammer spur

· Chamfer cylinder

· Custom finishes

Pistols:

· Change of sights to another conventional notch and post type

· Change of grips to another style or material that is similar to factory configuration (no weighted grips)

· Slip-on grip soc

k and/or skateboard tape

· Action work to enhance trigger pull as long as safety is maintained

· Reliability work to enhance feeding and ejection

· Internal accuracy work to include replacement of barrel with one of factory configuration (factory installed cone style barrels are permitted)

· Custom finishes

[rhino]

Most of us, were we to carry probably would not carry a full size 1911 double stack .45 we'd carry something light enough not to drown us if we fell in and powerfull enough to do the job.

The problem with that is you would eliminate the actual guns that people really do carry all the time. I'm not the only guy who carries a P14.45!

I still think the only way to solve this is to have people list their gun and gear ahead of time and let the match director either approve it or not, based on what they plan to use and how they justify whether or not they can or would carry it.

[Vince Pinto]

However, an IPSC dinosaur friend of mine has often argued that IPSC Modified Division is the most practical of the divisions and to a large degree because the gun has to fit "in the box".

Gee, I wonder who that might be??

Give BC my love, but tell him that's there's another proposal to eliminate Modified Division from IPSC but, when you tell him, make sure you're at a safe distance ........... I think Pluto should do it

[Neil Beverley]

Give BC my love, but tell him that's there's another proposal to eliminate Modified Division from IPSC but, when you tell him, make sure you're at a safe distance ........... I think Pluto should do it

Sounds like a job for Spence. I'm not brave enough.

[zorba]

Guys i thank you all , what i think we will do to cater for everyone is to use the ipsc safety rules and a few of the idpa rules.

With out a doubt we will have to create suitable divisions to ensure competitors can shoot the gun they want to.

And possibly because its a unique shoot we can do away with the classes.

Drift.. What was most interesting thing was how many of the guns people shot were totally unreliable, if confronted with a situation , would not have been good.

[ima45dv8]

The problem with that is you would eliminate the actual guns that people really do carry all the time.  I'm not the only guy who carries a P14.45!

I still think the only way to solve this is to have people list their gun and gear ahead of time and let the match director either approve it or not, based on what they plan to use and how they justify whether or not they can or would carry it.

Agreed. I sometimes carry a P-13 and I would hate to have it outlawed at a carry match.

I've always thought it would be cool at a match of this type to have someone "greet" the shooters at the range gate and see what they're carrying. That's what they get to shoot in the match. If someone wasn't carrying, and maybe their gun was locked in the trunk of the car or in a rug in their bag, that's how they would start the match. Gun in a box or bagged, loaded or unloaded as it was in their car. After the start signal, draw or retrieve the gun, load if necessary and start shootin'!

[rhino]

I've always thought it would be cool at a match of this type to have someone "greet" the shooters at the range gate and see what they're carrying. That's what they get to shoot in the match. If someone wasn't carrying, and maybe their gun was locked in the trunk of the car or in a rug in their bag, that's how they would start the match. Gun in a box or bagged, loaded or unloaded as it was in their car. After the start signal, draw or retrieve the gun, load if necessary and start shootin'!

That's a great idea!

[AikiDale]

Most of us, were we to carry probably would not carry a full size 1911 double stack .45

I have to admit my Summer Government model is a singlestack. And often I only carry one. But as the weather gets cooler I upgrade to the Kimber .45 doublestack, vests hide it just fine, and sometimes carry two.

In a former life in a galaxy far, far away a long time ago I was a certified WSI. If you need swimming lessons we can work something out....

[rhino]

I have to admit my Summer Government model is a singlestack. And often I only carry one. But as the weather gets cooler I upgrade to the Kimber .45 doublestack, vests hide it just fine, and sometimes carry two.

I Dale!