zorba Posted August 6, 2004 Share Posted August 6, 2004 Hi everyone, i need to draw on all of your views and experience. Every year our club has a carry gun shoot where we are expected to shoot from behind cover and draw from concealement. Some guys shoot their carry guns , some shoot reduced loads , some shoot single stacks, and some shoot their guns that they compete with. This causes so much sh t with comments and phrases like "how can we compete against that " etc. The problem is that there is no set of rules or divisions to cater for the different guns, if there is no rule preventing a competitor from using his best blaster for the job ,then how do you prevent it. Sick of the cr p, help us set up some decent rules please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted August 6, 2004 Share Posted August 6, 2004 The problem is that there is no set of rules or divisions to cater for the different guns, if there is no rule preventing a competitor from using his best blaster for the job ,then how do you prevent it. OK, maybe I've lost the plot here, but surely you could just apply either IPSC rules and divisions or IDPA rules and divisions (the latter are probably more likely to suit, due to the "reload from cover" and "concealment" issues). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted August 6, 2004 Share Posted August 6, 2004 Sounds like IDPA rules are a good place to start. http://www.idpa.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zorba Posted August 6, 2004 Author Share Posted August 6, 2004 Vince so far the only rules applied are those of IPSC safety rules, and Gold , Silver and Bronze, we have no idea what the rules of IDPA are. The biggest bone of contention is that the competitors are not using their primary carry gun, the gun that they would use to carry on a daily basis, they are using the best gun they have for the job.I dont have a problem with this, but i do understand that using a six shot gun is like farting against thunder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zorba Posted August 6, 2004 Author Share Posted August 6, 2004 Thanx rino, was posting when you replied Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted August 6, 2004 Share Posted August 6, 2004 The biggest bone of contention is that the competitors are not using their primary carry gun, the gun that they would use to carry on a daily basis, they are using the best gun they have for the job. In that case, neither IPSC nor IDPA rules can help you, because neither organisation dictates "you must use the actual gun that you carry". IPSC & IDPA both separate guns by type and/or action, not by daily usage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zorba Posted August 7, 2004 Author Share Posted August 7, 2004 Thanx Vince now i am armed with the right words. I also have the solution, thanx for the responces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakal Posted August 7, 2004 Share Posted August 7, 2004 Be careful. There are some jerks out there (ahem) who carry custom STI pistols every day. If you want to run a BUG match, then you will have to specify something like "no more than six rounds in the gun...ever..." which will still annoy the J-frame crowd but may help achieve the goal you seem to be striving for. Just FYI, my standard carry gun is a 9 by 23 STI Commander. 18 rounds in a flush fit mag, and I usually have a 27-round Big Stick in my jacket pocket. I wouldn't want to compete against that with a Kel-Tec P40 either Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liota Posted August 7, 2004 Share Posted August 7, 2004 Me either. I think I hear the Sig in the safe. L Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted August 7, 2004 Share Posted August 7, 2004 We have run a "Pocket GUn" match on a few occasions. Here is what we decided met the "Divisions" Revolver: Barrel under 2-1/2” & Barrel over 2-1/2” Automatic:Barrel 3-1/2” or less & Barrel over 3-1/2” Shoot what you brought! An insufficient number of competitors in a Division will result in that Division being combined with the next appropriate Division. The barrel lengths for a particular Division were determined by reviewing popular handguns. We did not review all makes/models. Therefore, if there are any issues with determining Division, the final decision will rest with the match officials. We had no complaints. This match was run on a saturday at our indoor facility. There were no reloads. All courses were Virgina Count, 5 rounds, one shot to a target. THere were 4 stages, each shot twice, one "Freestyle" and once "Stronghand only" You started playing cards, seated at a tbel, lying on a lounge watching TV, Saeted and had to recover your gun from a Toolbox, and once from a bucket after which you opened a door. We ran 4 shooters at a time on a common firing line, each shooter shot, then we scored all 4, taped and shot the second string, then each shooter roatated one stage and we shot again. a full match lasted about 30 minutes for each group of 4 shooters. We preassigned slots and the crew stayed for the full day. Not saying this would all suit your purpose, but it worked for us. If we were to run a "Carry gun" match, I would prbably use the 5 divisions and simply set up 5-7 basic stages, I'd leave out the 32 round plus stages and concentrate on 10-15 round maximums. Where do you shoot? might be worth a trip! Jim Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zorba Posted August 8, 2004 Author Share Posted August 8, 2004 I hear you Wakal, i also carry an sti , on occasion ,i should not have to justify HOW WHERE and WHY i carry it, especially when i pitch up at a match to compete with it. The organisers should have the nessessary rules/divisions in place to avoid any probs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zorba Posted August 8, 2004 Author Share Posted August 8, 2004 Thank you all for replies , please keep it comming.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooterj Posted August 8, 2004 Share Posted August 8, 2004 The local range here holds a "carry" match once a year. There are very few rules as to which guns are allowed. All guns must have a barrel length of less than 3.875 inches. All stages are fixed time and require only 5 shots. Total of 50 rounds per match. No reloads are allowed, factory ammo only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted August 9, 2004 Share Posted August 9, 2004 You can solve some complaints ("No, really, I carry a USAS-12!..") by calling it a "stubby-gun" match or some such and have a barrel length limit. Another option is to have everybody place their unloaded carry guns on a table. Have three equipment divisions "Small, Medium and Large". Shooter majority vote on which ones goes where. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zak Smith Posted August 9, 2004 Share Posted August 9, 2004 I surprised that the repsonses imply that so many people carry, well, really small guns for CCW. The three guns I rotate CCW are: a BHP (15+1), a HK P7 (8+1), and a Commander (8+1). None of these have a barrel under 4", all have a capacity of at least 9. -z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted August 9, 2004 Share Posted August 9, 2004 I carry both a Para-Ordnance P14.45 and a single stack 1911 all the time. Well, when I'm in the gym, I downsize to a little airweight J frame, but that's a special case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zorba Posted August 9, 2004 Author Share Posted August 9, 2004 All sounds good, brings me back to my original statement. At a shoot like the one we have , no match official can dismiss or argue the blaster one carries. We have to do the division thing!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted August 9, 2004 Share Posted August 9, 2004 Well, when I'm in the gym Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakal Posted August 9, 2004 Share Posted August 9, 2004 I do NOT want to know where Rhino carries that J-Frame when he is "in the gym." I think I feel another bout of hysterical blindness coming on... Shred, while I don't carry my USAS-12, I do carry a shorty STI every day. Used to carry a single-stack, but then decided to update by 80-odd years of progress in weapons technology I've been known to run around airports with a M9 in a 6004 thigh holster now and then, too. A bit of trivia...a guy in worn-out BDUs and a M9 can actually load baggage on a commercial airplane without having his ID checked ONCE. At least at the San Angelo Airport, Hair Care, and Tire center there Back on topic: after reading some of the excellent replies in this thread, I think my club will have to have a "carry" gun match...classified by capacity. At least two: five round guns and big mag guns. Flush fit mags only Hmm....revolvers, eight-round guns, and big mag guns...that would solve the mini-Glock problem (darn G27 with a 29-round magazine)... Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted August 9, 2004 Share Posted August 9, 2004 Having a "carry gun" (i.e. you can use whatever you carry) match will never work without divisions, so you might as well apply IPSC rules (or possibly IDPA rules). I recall the World Shoot in South Africa, where my carry gun was a G17 or a G26 (or occasionally both). During the General Assembly, I had to go to the rear of the room to do something, when a top US competitor walked in to speak with a US official. As he leant forward to whisper in the official's ear, it was impossible not to notice that the competitor had a fully blown race gun with a scope and a 20 round (?) magazine stuck down the back of his trousers (no holster) under a loose T-shirt !!! Now wouldn't you feel kinda lame using your J frame against that type of hardware? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 I do NOT want to know where Rhino carries that J-Frame when he is "in the gym." On my way to and from the gym, a single stack gubmint model rides in a Ky-Tac BraveHeart tucked into my nylon back support belt. When I get to the gym, I swap that for a Smith & Wesson M442 in a Don Hume IWB that also clips inside of my belt. When I'm done and go back to my truck, I reverse it for the trip home. It's a system. Oh, when I have the .45, I also have a Bianchi double mag pouch in my left sweatpants pocket with a pair of spare 8-rd mags in it. When I switch to the J-Frame, I drop a speed strip with five extra rounds in my right hand pocket. I don't even notice I have it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liota Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 Rhino, I was seriously afraid it involved a purple thong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 Liota, Gee, thanks. That's a visualisation I really didn't need just before lunch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liota Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 Vince, I'm guessing my cookie ration is gone for at least a month? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 Rhino,I was seriously afraid it involved a purple thong. Afraid? Admit it ... you were quivering with anticipation ... you wanted it! And just because I didn't mention the purple thong, it doesn't mean that one isn't involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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