Politicians

[Peter K]

I hate politicians because now they want to illegalize IPSC in Germany. Some weeks ago we had a school-masacre in Erfurt where a 19 year old guy killed 16 persons and then himself. Now politicians say that "we have to do something very quickly to make live safer in Germany". So they want to forbid us to have ammunition at home and so on ...

AND: They want to forbid "combat shooting" like IPSC, too.

Hey Americans: FIGHT FOR YOUR RIGHTS TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS!!! Otherwise the politicians will kill your rights!

[EricW]

I'm sorry for you Peter.  Please don't be offended, but I just don't understand Europe in general.  This issue extends far beyond simple gun control.

Liberty has been on the decine in Europe for decades.  Amazingly enough, Europeans seem to enjoy this loss of freedom since they keep voting for the same cadre of morons.  Europeans have traded liberty for socialized medicine, a massive welfare state, and a litany of other questionable handouts that have rendered Europe's economy a perpetual shambles.  Was it a fair trade?

I can't think of a better example than Europe of what happens when the citizens fail their own system of government.  How many millions have given their lives in the last century in opposition of tyranny in Europe?  And for what?  To watch Europeans throw the gift away by allowing their governments to be filled with Communists, Socialists, Environmentalists/Terrorists, et. al.  Any one of these groups, if given the opportunity, would install a repressive dictatorship overnight.  

The U.S. has given Europe two golden opportunities for it to get its s***

together.  The first was carelessly thrown away in less than 20 years.  The second chance is going more slowly, but it too will surely be wasted.  I'm sorry to seem harsh, but I'm really having a tough time believing the third liberation of Europe will be a charm.  Maybe tyrranical opression is just Europe's destiny.  Perhaps Feudalism is just genetically ingrained.  

Until Europeans comprehend the equal importance of both Freedom and Democracy and that they are inexorably intertwined, one can predictably expect a third descent of the continent into darkness.  Don't expect rapid salvation from across the Atlantic again.  This crap is getting old.  

How can the harsh lessons of two holocausts be lost in so little time?

[Rant Mode OFF]

E

(Edited by EricW at 8:06 pm on May 26, 2002)

[Nik Habicht]

Eric,

Great Rant!!  Unfortunately I too think it's too late....

[DogmaDog]

Peter,

I hope the "illegalize IPSC" thing isn't credible.  We have some politicians here who will talk about how "practical pistol" is just a euphamism for "combat shooting" (which is true) and how that somehow means that we're out at the range on weekends training to murder people and kill police officers.  Obviously they've never actually SPOKEN to a competetive shooter, or been to a match, else they'd know.  

There's also some move afoot to try to tax ammunition in CA (I think) at $0.05 per round, and use the money to fund trauma centers where all the damage caused by bullets must be treated.  Absolutely ridiculous.  Clearly prohibits the sporting shooter who shoots a few hundred rounds a month, but doesn't influence the criminal who only needs one box of ammo.  

So sad that so many people can't live with the idea that others have the power to act solely of their own free will, and that they are so deluded as to think that they can prevent this through the institution of government.

Semper Fi,

DogmaDog

[Dowter]

---

Some weeks ago we had a school-masacre in Erfurt where a 19 year old guy killed 16 persons and then himself. Now politicians say that "we have to do something very quickly to make live safer in Germany".

---

And of course this guy wasn't an IPSC shooter though IPSC must be the problem.... of course. [scarcasm mode off]

Ah yes.  People throughout the world are (unfortunately) truly the same.  The anti-gun crowd will exploit any situation for their agenda.  Over here with the 9/11 terrorist attacks, the gun control nuts (as opposed to people with self control) exploited the situation by declaring that american gun shows help support terrorists.  They also declared the Barret company to be supplying 50 BMGs to the same terrorists we were fighting.   All lies!  These people have no shame. http://www.vpc.com  

I don't care too much for some things that the Israeli government does but they certainly ain't stupid.  They've learned the hard way what happens when someone takes away firearms from their people.  With the increase in terror attacks there they actively increased the number of citizens with guns.  Some terror attacks have been stopped by armed Israeli citizens.  The news just doesn't like to report that too much.

(Edited by Dowter at 6:06 pm on May 28, 2002)

[Julien Boit]

This is the same thing in France ...

IPSC has been illegal for couple of years now.

We had to change the name of the sport and remain almost confidential .

Even with a world Champ with us, things are really hard to move !

I think there is a huge plot in europe to disarm people and that's why we must work now to set up an "European NRA", with millions of people representing a big "electoral weight" we must be heard by politics.

DVC

Julien

[John Thompson]

Look at Australia, the two major political parties want to ban handguns.  Who do you vote for. I'm actually suprised it took this long there since the only reason they didn't when they banned long guns was because of the upcoming Olympics.

I fear it's too late for Europe due to gun owners being in denial too long and the general European apothy about everything.  The thing that keeps guns relatively legal in the U.S. is gun owners constantly telling people publicly "hey we own guns and it's OK".  We refuse to let people develop a total gunnhating mindset.

If Europe, Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa are going to prevail the word that guns and gun owners are ok must get out and stay out.  An enthusiastic European NRA is a good idea.

Otherwise, do what I do: shoot today like there is no tomorrow.

(Edited by John Thompson at 3:43 pm on June 5, 2002)

[spook]

OK, this might sound strange, because I have previously posted a big rant about dutch gun laws, but now I think they're actually OK.

Peter, I too think that people create stupid rules to "control" gun use. For instance: the ten round mag rule in the US. It's totally stupid. Like you can't kill anyone with ten rounds. Or the fact that in Germany you can't shoot walking during an IPSC course. What a bunch of crap. Where does that help.

Now I do not believe in giving arms to anyone. I mean in the US it's just way too easy for the wrong persons to get their hands on them. But guess what: that goes for every country.

I think the law in the Netherlands on guns is pretty neat. You can't have them if you have ever been convicted for any serious crimes. You can have them at 18 and after you have been member of an official shooting club. All guns are registered of course. Furtermore, you have to shoot at least twelve to 35 times a year, depending on how many guns you have. You can have 5 guns max. (which is a rule that sucks at times, but OTOH will keep me from going broke on all those cool blasters).

But still there's a great  amount of illegal guns going around in our country. But the rules give a good monitoring ability of the legal gun owners and their guns. This way you can show that there's noting wrong with legal gun ownership. Fortunately, since you have to be really serious about guns to own one legally, no one has EVER been murdered with a legal gun in Holland.

And EricW, I'm really sorry to say so, but with Bush as the leader of your country, I would be a little more hesitant about speaking of the European leaders as "morons". By that I mean Bush is the epitome of a classical moron.  He doesn't give a hoot about other countries, and only interferes when the chance exists that the US (or he personally) will be hurt (e.g. not signing the Kyoto treaty). But that's OK. This has been in the nature of US foreign politics for about a century (in relationship to Europe). That's the reason America did not join WWII after attacks on them. Before that and after the turnaround at the Eastern front, where were they? Another nice example is the fact that I always hear people claim that it was the US who liberated Europe (and thereby me). Fact is Holland was liberated by the Canadians, I'm only 23 so haven't been liberated by anyone and if you're really that eager to thank only one group for liberating Europe, then let that be the Russians, for more than 20,000,000 of them were killed during WWII in their attempt of liberating Europe.

I think Europe isn't that bad when compared to other areas in the world like the US. And I think every system has it's own freedoms. The only problem is people not seeing that. Everyone always claims their system is the best and will try to force that on the rest of the world. Unfortunately this goes for most systems (including the US "free" system).

You might not get a very developed social system. What I don't get is people rotting away in the streets. People with children, and the people standing over them telling them to either get a job or die. I don't get the fact that you can actually worship Hitler in some countries. I don't understand that it is legal to call people names because of their skincolour or religion. I don't understand that you call your country free when a lot of people who live there will seriously disagree with you. Tell me what freedom is, and I will find a person who will tell you that it's not.

(Edited by spook at 12:33 pm on June 7, 2002)

[spook]

Sorry, double posted

(Edited by spook at 12:36 pm on June 7, 2002)

[spook]

Nevermind

(Edited by spook at 12:35 pm on June 7, 2002)

[jhgtyre]

Gun laws only control the law abiding.  Why control them?  Criminals flaunt laws.  What then is the real purpose of a gun law?

-jhgtyre

[John Thompson]

Spook,

1. Only being able to own five guns is called gun rationing.  You can own five guns today? Great because some politician is going to say: Who needs to own five guns? Then it will be four guns, then three, then who needs to own any?

2. Gun registration is great because after the politician decides you don't need any guns they know where to find yours.

3. Bush is not a moron.  Do you really believe everything your liberal press tells you?  Come live here for awhile then make your expert opinion.   America doesn't make any European country do anything.  Don't like us? Jealous maybe?  Around here it looks like Europe is always trying to control us with their UN initiatives directed towards us i.e global gun control, evironmental wackosism, pro-abortion, anti-death penalty, money, UN tax, CONSTANT WHINING,etc

4.  Here's the one you should have put a little thought to before you posted.  America may have entered WWII late but still lost over 300,000 lives trying to save countries who rolled over and gave up without even a fight.  Canada fought well and sacrificed many but their military could hardly have saved Europe alone.  Europe prevailed because of American lives and American war material.  I'm sorry sir, you posting was arrogant, ignorant, and demeaning to everyone who died fighting that war.

5. Canadians weren't the only ones to die to save your country.  The American 81st and 101st airborne almost ceased to exist do to losses suffered in Operation Market Garden, the largest assualt in WWII which took place in Holland.  Troops involved were from US, England, Canada, Poland and some others I missed.

Spook you can disagree Eric W's post but I don't understand what you were trying to accomplish.

[EricW]

Hi Spook,

Sounds like we're going to debate a little here.  

The European attitude that I was going after was the: "I don't have freedom of [fill in the blank] like other people do, but I have [fill in the blank, i.e. socialized medicine], therefore it's OK."  Is it OK?

For Bush, he may not be the sharpest pencil in the cup, and no, he's not a great public speaker, but he DOES have the wisdom to surround himself with great people.  With that talent pool, the US now has one of the best, most competent leadership teams it has had this century.  That fact alone may make Bush one of the *wisest* Presidents we have ever had.  

The reasons we don't rush to help Europe, now and historically, are varied, but include: America's horror at the sheer ghastliness of WWI (a widely prevailing sentiment before WWII), the fact that most Americans are descendants of immigrants who escaped the caste system of Europe (why *should* they go back to help?), and the fact that every time America goes somewhere in the World and acts, all the World does is bitch about it.  We're damned if we help and damned if we don't.  No matter what America does, it's wrong.  We're either an imperialistic nation or an apathetic one.  There is no in-between.  Give us a scenario we can win, and we might show up for the party more often.

One of the reasons we did not jump into WWII earlier is that, we literally didn't have any armaments or troops to send.  The US actually abided by it's treaties and destroyed its armaments between the wars.  This was also imposed by the will of the American people upon our government.  Participation in another European war was absolutely unacceptable.  Because of that, before 1939, we had one of the world's SMALLEST armies.  We couldn't help ourselves much less anyone else.  I'm amazed at how people that label the US a "self-serving, war-monger nation" leave this little fact out.  Additionally, we DID risk war with Germany in this state of total unpreparedness by *giving* supplies to Britain via the Lend-Lease Act.

As far as the Russians "liberating" anything in Europe, history begs to differ.  The Russians conspired with Nazi Germany before the war to divide Eastern Europe into spheres of interest.  They had no interest in liberating anything or anyone, only to conquer and steal.  After Hitler reneged on the deal, yes, the Soviets lost horrific numbers of people in defense of the their homeland, but once Germany was pushed westward, Stalin did not hesitate to seize every spoil his armies came across, and his methods were nothing short of treacherous and cruel.  The extent of the Iron Curtain was indeed the fault of the US, as it was only at the imploring of Winston Churchill that the US and British armies blocked the Russians' western advance.  Ask any former resident of East Germany or one of the Baltic states if he or she felt "liberated" by the Soviets.

As far as the extensive gun control laws go, we have a similar system for full-auto weapons.  Something like one or two of these have been ever been used in a crime. The problem is that people don't understand the separation of powers in the US's system of government.  Our leftist, socialist school system they teaches us that there are only three branches of government:  Administrative (President), Legislative (Congress), and Judicial (Supreme Court).  But, according to our Founding Fathers, there are FOUR branches.  The Left conveniently keeps leaving out The People - to whom all remaining rights and powers are vested.  Our system is inherently dependent on the power of The People as a balancing agent.  Register guns, and you have debased our system of government.  The question is: "Do the ends, justify the means?"  

Our social systems are actually quite developed and extensive.  A lot of it is done through private organizations, so people just don't hear about them.  It's not that charity doesn't exist for the homeless or the hapless, it's just very often conditional.  If a person doesn't want to sleep on the street, there is a shelter for them, but the condition for entry is they can't be drunk or on drugs.  Our philosophy is to pull these people *up* from their despair, not just enable them to live a destructive lifestyle indefinitely.  Most of the people you see living on the streets are there by *choice* not by government mandate.

And yes, we have freedom of speech.  There are consequences of this, but the net result has been very definitely good.  

E

[Flexmoney]

http://www2.holland.com/us/

[EricW]

OK Flex, I'll  shut up now.  

[spook]

John, because of the WWII, I now have one brother, my parents and that's it. My parents are from the war and the rest of my family was killed, so I would very much appreciate it if you would not think of me as being demeaning to anyone who died fighting in WWII. Also, what I say about Bush, I base on his own speeches i get from CNN, which is broadcasted here 24/7.

EricW, I'm glad you responded in constructive way. I'm not really out for a debate here, but I must admit that I felt a little offended by your first post. I'm sure that you didn't mean to offend me.

I agree on the Bush surrounding himself with intelligent people part. I think people like Powell are great politicians. It's just that I get so tired of the constant criticism of people from one system on (people from)other systems. Sometimes it just looks like there's no room for self reflection. But then again, I agree with you that there's always the damned if you do, damned if you don't on the US (and other systems for that matter).

Also, I think that you asked a very interesting question: "Do the ends justify the means?". I honestly do not think one can predict the ends, plus it depends on the situation. Well, I could talk/write about this for hours, but I guess that this is not the right place for that.

What, I was just trying to say (and admittedly felt offended about) is that you make it look like you feel the US is "all that" and Europe completely sucks (including all the people in it). All the countries in Europe are so different and so are the people. It's united, but not like the States.

I just want to say that I felt offended by your post and should have seen it was a rant, because I think my reaction to your post was probably as harsh as your initial post. For that I'm sorry, because I didn't want to offend you in the same way that I felt offended.

Bjorn

[EricW]

Spook,

Hey man, no offense intended or taken.  To Americans, Europe is the great contradiction:  great people with wierd governments.  

E

[spook]

[gm iprod]

RANT WARNING!

I am English by birth and now live in New Zealand, by choice. I can only tell people about what I was told by my Grandfather. He rarely talked about the War (WW2). To the day he died aged 92 last August, he hated everything French. He lost 4, yes 4, brothers in the BEF (British Expeditionary Force) in France, from Sept 1939 to when the British Army was saved by a bunch of PRIVATELY owned boats at Dunkirk, they were under the overall command of the French. They were British Army Regulars, volunteers and were sent to France at the wars outbreak. He never had the same hatred for the Germans, but they were the ones who did the killing. I never understood that, I never will.

But I can understand the US position of not getting involved. The war was not in their backyard. But their freinds needed help and they answered. Many of the British were not particularly happy about having the US Forces stationed in various parts of Britain for close on 3 years, "while our lads were off fighting". I still remember what many of my Grandfathers freinds used to say about them. "Over paid, over sexed and over here". So ingratitued seems to be a normal thing. Many Americans gave it all for the Europeans, just like many young French, Dutch, Poles you should all know the list. But it was a political war, fought by ordinary people, who died in the millions. I bet very few polititions actually took up arms! They all hide in their ivory towers and send out others.

Just remember that the NAzis did not occupy all of France, just a part of it, in my not so humble opinion, those people in the unoccupied part ( In Vichy France I believe, please correct me if I am wrong ) just folded and rolled on its collective back and let the Nazis rub its belly. Please don't let that happen again. France for the most part is a magnificent country, just like many parts of Europe.

I meet many people from many parts of the world, and am particurlarly intrigued by the Europeans. Most of the people I see are really nice folks and quite normal, because they are interested in what I am.

As EricW says, great people BUT.

We get many customers in the gunshop I work in from French Polynesia. They are obviously all keen shooters, but some of the INSANE firearms laws that they have to live with!!!!!!! I get on very well with most of them, some of them I have been shooting with many times and I hope they consider me to be their freind as I certainly do them. They travel many miles and spend a hell of a lot of money to continue their sport. I get the impression that they are also not happy with the attitude of their government and many of its predecessors and the obvious backward steps that have occured in the last 55years or so. One man actually commented that the nannyfication of the people in Europe is not going to stop any time soon. Too many people are so inept at running their lives that they would gratefully give up their own rights as well as yours to have the State think for them. "It makes life easy". Yeah right!!!!!!!

For Gods sake wake up and smell the roses.

The Nazis ( not Germans ) and subsequently the Soviets ( not Russians ) and more recently the Socialists are going to screw you over a barrel. They don't care for individual freedoms, they don't care for individual rights. Take a quick look around China right now. They are only interested in getting their share of the pie and YOURS.

I am glad my parents decided to leave. I returned to the UK once, in 1990. The place seemed to be going to SHIT. They were all complaining that the government wasn't doing enough. I just wanted to get the hell home. All the people I knew were amazed that I could own, FREELY, all the firearms that I had.

They were also amazed that I could actually own ( between my wife and I) two cars and two motorcycles. Surely the registration/insurance was crippling?. Hey it was fairly expensive but not as much as if I had had them in the UK. The cost of registration ( TAX ) of one of the bikes in the UK was just short of both the insurance and registration here for all 4. I enjoy them. I have yet to kill anyone with either my motor vehicles or my firearms, all though a few politions are getting very close. So why should I be punished for being a free thinking individual. Well the answer to that is, they are afraid of me and my type because I will not bow down to them or their ideas.

The Americans are overburdened by in excess of 40,000 laws concerning firearms. So don't say they got it easy. They have their share of nutty governments. So they should keep one eye pointing backwards. The schools, both in the US and Europe and increasingly anywhere considered western are teaching kids that they have certain rights. They have the freedom of speech etc. Your parents are not allowed to discipline you, not allowed to tell you what to do. We know best etc. You must not get angry and show any form of individual thought in case you "upset someone".

Tough. People upset me, I tell them when they do and get on with life. If I upset them, they should tell me, then get on with life. But I don't go round intentionally annoying people and pushing my views onto others. Life is hard ( tough! ), it is also what you make of it. If I had all the answers????? Who knows. I have made enough mistakes to realise that no body is going to do it for you.

The Europeans were grateful for what the Canadians, Americans etal did. But unforunately many, not all, have forgotten. Before the Americans are told off for the percieved colonial aspirations, take a hard look at South America. I understand a large amount of Spanish and Portugese is spoken down there, are they not European languages. Lets not forget Algeria and some other North African countries. But seeing as I am English I should also keep the stone throwing to a minimum, my forefathers have also spread themselves about at bit. Most of the southern bits of Africa, the South Pacific, South East Asia, India, Pakistan, and the Middle East!!.

What did we think we could achieve in 50 years that the Romans could not in 300.  We have managed to piss just about every other nation off over the last 200years. But hell we are only French, as of 1066. Thanks Bill from somewhere called Normandy. Before that Saxons, Celts, Romans, Norseman and others. Oh hell, back to WW2 again. My own surname is Germanic and half my mothers family were from Wales.

So what goes around comes around.

We all have to fight this together. Regardless of what has gone on in the past, its the future that is more important.

Just look at Afghanistan, now that the Taliban have gone they are at each others throats, trying to get as much power for themselves. All the OLD animosity between OLD rival gangsters, is back. Oh they call themselves the Governor of ??. But these bastards are gangsters just like the Mafia, to name one bunch. Once they got the help they wanted, from who??, they will turn on it, and

on that nasty person from that side of the hill. Because? They have always hated them, from some 900years ago.

You have to remember who your freinds are, they can be easily distinguished from our enemies.

Our freinds are happy to see us with firearms. Our enemies are not

Good Shooting.

(Edited by gm iprod at 4:57 am on June 9, 2002)

[Nik Habicht]

Don't hold back now, tell us how you really feel.....