RO's should provide good customer service

[A45100]

It is a fine line between being courteous and meddling in the matches outcome. You notice that the shooters gun is on the edge of being knocked out of the holster as they move into the start position, or that the holster has come unlocked. Do you warn them, or do you let it go and prepare to DQ them? Just as the buzzer goes off the wind kicks a big cloud of dust and debris up in the middle of the COF. Do you stop the shooter until it clears or do you let them go and hope nothing gets knocked over and that the shooter can see OK when they shoot in or through the middle of the dust cloud? How is that different than the morning squad shooting in the rain and the afternoon squad shooting in perfect conditions?

I'm glad you brought this one up, I learned the hard way about this one at the MG Nationals. We had more people than I have ever seen before show up with a whole truck load of brand new gear and tell us this was their first MG match EVER. An obvious new shooter came to the line got his pistol ready and holstered it in his brand new CR Speed holster but he did not get it in the correct position to lock the trigger guard behind the trigger bar. it was headed to the dirt on his first step so I mentioned it to the RO running the clock. After the shooter was through the CRO took me aside and told me that even though he did not agree with the rule, we can't correct such issues even though we know that gun is coming out of the holster resulting in a safety DQ. As for the dust devils, well we all know we're going to have to replace a bunch of targets after it blows through so why start the shooter just to stop him so you can give him a reshoot because of stage equipment failure.

[A45100]

A45100

Your question: Now for the question, how would you respond to officiating like this, would you be more willing to work the stage, taping, resetting steel, etc and would that make you want to shoot more major matches? Your comments are appreciated.

Personally, I like the approach. More CROs like you are needed. Good judgement always make for a better match.

Considering the squad I usually shoot with during A2 and WSSSC, there is no question about working the stage. We all work the stage there is no question about it. The RO/CRO has nothing to do with it. Everyone is motivated to help.

During SMM3G, we did have an individual that did not work. I brought it to his attention in what many considered a very polite manner. After the next shooter, he took issue with my request of him to help with working the stage. Unfortunately, I shocked some of my close friends with the tone and tenor of my response, I was quite emphatic that all squad members participate in the working of a stage. Even the ROs explicitly expressed their appreciation of my interaction.

We all know at every match there are "those" squads, they shoot together at the local match and they shoot together at the majors. for them the match is more about socializing that shooting and it's certainly not about resetting the stage for the next shooter or squad. I've even been at one major where the CRO had the threaten to give each and every member of the squad a procedural if they didn't start putting in some work. I'm always looking for more effective ways to work with squads like this.

[sperman]

It is a fine line between being courteous and meddling in the matches outcome. You notice that the shooters gun is on the edge of being knocked out of the holster as they move into the start position, or that the holster has come unlocked. Do you warn them, or do you let it go and prepare to DQ them? Just as the buzzer goes off the wind kicks a big cloud of dust and debris up in the middle of the COF. Do you stop the shooter until it clears or do you let them go and hope nothing gets knocked over and that the shooter can see OK when they shoot in or through the middle of the dust cloud? How is that different than the morning squad shooting in the rain and the afternoon squad shooting in perfect conditions?

I'm glad you brought this one up, I learned the hard way about this one at the MG Nationals. We had more people than I have ever seen before show up with a whole truck load of brand new gear and tell us this was their first MG match EVER. An obvious new shooter came to the line got his pistol ready and holstered it in his brand new CR Speed holster but he did not get it in the correct position to lock the trigger guard behind the trigger bar. it was headed to the dirt on his first step so I mentioned it to the RO running the clock. After the shooter was through the CRO took me aside and told me that even though he did not agree with the rule, we can't correct such issues even though we know that gun is coming out of the holster resulting in a safety DQ. As for the dust devils, well we all know we're going to have to replace a bunch of targets after it blows through so why start the shooter just to stop him so you can give him a reshoot because of stage equipment failure.

I completely disagree.

Do you know why a dropped gun results in a DQ? Becuase it is unsafe, and has potentially lethal consequences. Our primary goal as RO's is to keep the range safe. If, in the process of doing so, we save a shooter from being DQ'd, so be it. I wonder what that CRO would have said when the gun fell out of the holster, swept the entire peanut gallery, and sent a round who knows where.

Here is the first line from the RO's Creed.

As a USPSA Range Officer, I shall conduct all competitions with the safety of the competitors, spectators and fellow Range Officials first and foremost in my thoughts and actions.

[Nik Habicht]

It is a fine line between being courteous and meddling in the matches outcome. You notice that the shooters gun is on the edge of being knocked out of the holster as they move into the start position, or that the holster has come unlocked. Do you warn them, or do you let it go and prepare to DQ them? Just as the buzzer goes off the wind kicks a big cloud of dust and debris up in the middle of the COF. Do you stop the shooter until it clears or do you let them go and hope nothing gets knocked over and that the shooter can see OK when they shoot in or through the middle of the dust cloud? How is that different than the morning squad shooting in the rain and the afternoon squad shooting in perfect conditions?

I'm glad you brought this one up, I learned the hard way about this one at the MG Nationals. We had more people than I have ever seen before show up with a whole truck load of brand new gear and tell us this was their first MG match EVER. An obvious new shooter came to the line got his pistol ready and holstered it in his brand new CR Speed holster but he did not get it in the correct position to lock the trigger guard behind the trigger bar. it was headed to the dirt on his first step so I mentioned it to the RO running the clock. After the shooter was through the CRO took me aside and told me that even though he did not agree with the rule, we can't correct such issues even though we know that gun is coming out of the holster resulting in a safety DQ. As for the dust devils, well we all know we're going to have to replace a bunch of targets after it blows through so why start the shooter just to stop him so you can give him a reshoot because of stage equipment failure.

I completely disagree.

Do you know why a dropped gun results in a DQ? Becuase it is unsafe, and has potentially lethal consequences. Our primary goal as RO's is to keep the range safe. If, in the process of doing so, we save a shooter from being DQ'd, so be it. I wonder what that CRO would have said when the gun fell out of the holster, swept the entire peanut gallery, and sent a round who knows where.

Here is the first line from the RO's Creed.

As a USPSA Range Officer, I shall conduct all competitions with the safety of the competitors, spectators and fellow Range Officials first and foremost in my thoughts and actions.

I'm with Scott on this one. Not getting the gun in the holster is way different from holstering without a mag inserted, or without racking the slide....

[A45100]

It is a fine line between being courteous and meddling in the matches outcome. You notice that the shooters gun is on the edge of being knocked out of the holster as they move into the start position, or that the holster has come unlocked. Do you warn them, or do you let it go and prepare to DQ them? Just as the buzzer goes off the wind kicks a big cloud of dust and debris up in the middle of the COF. Do you stop the shooter until it clears or do you let them go and hope nothing gets knocked over and that the shooter can see OK when they shoot in or through the middle of the dust cloud? How is that different than the morning squad shooting in the rain and the afternoon squad shooting in perfect conditions?

I'm glad you brought this one up, I learned the hard way about this one at the MG Nationals. We had more people than I have ever seen before show up with a whole truck load of brand new gear and tell us this was their first MG match EVER. An obvious new shooter came to the line got his pistol ready and holstered it in his brand new CR Speed holster but he did not get it in the correct position to lock the trigger guard behind the trigger bar. it was headed to the dirt on his first step so I mentioned it to the RO running the clock. After the shooter was through the CRO took me aside and told me that even though he did not agree with the rule, we can't correct such issues even though we know that gun is coming out of the holster resulting in a safety DQ. As for the dust devils, well we all know we're going to have to replace a bunch of targets after it blows through so why start the shooter just to stop him so you can give him a reshoot because of stage equipment failure.

I completely disagree.

Do you know why a dropped gun results in a DQ? Becuase it is unsafe, and has potentially lethal consequences. Our primary goal as RO's is to keep the range safe. If, in the process of doing so, we save a shooter from being DQ'd, so be it. I wonder what that CRO would have said when the gun fell out of the holster, swept the entire peanut gallery, and sent a round who knows where.

Here is the first line from the RO's Creed.

As a USPSA Range Officer, I shall conduct all competitions with the safety of the competitors, spectators and fellow Range Officials first and foremost in my thoughts and actions.

I'm with Scott on this one. Not getting the gun in the holster is way different from holstering without a mag inserted, or without racking the slide....

For the record guys I can't agree with you more so I talked to the CRO from the stage just to be sure I understood him right. according to him this is not from the rule book exactly it comes more from the game becoming more litigious all the time and guys carrying lawyers around in their range bags. Here is basically what he said.

"This falls under two items which you won't really find in the rule book. First, we teach that once make ready is given that only the official range commands are used. Secondly, and likely more important is the necessity of treating every shooter the same way. Some take this so far as not saying things like "nice run", "good job" and so on. There have been instances where stupid crap like this was cited as ROs showing favoritism or providing an advantage to one shooter over others. So, say another shooter came to the line after you assisted your guy and did the same thing, no one caught it, and his gun took a dirt bath? He might try to arb saying that he wasn't warned where others in his squad were and it only gets ugly from there. I detest that some in the sport take things to this level and I don't agree that we should not offer encouragement etc especially to our junior shooters. But that us the lay of the dang land right now. Make sense?

I'm sure this is going to open up a whole fresh new discussion but if it gets out there then we as shooters and match officials can put a stop to this kind of non-sense before we do have to start carrying lawyers in our range bags.

[Jammer1911]

I am in 100% agreement that fair consistent enforcement of the rules needs to happen. If the shooter does a DQable offense then that call needs to be made at that moment. That being said if you are not 100% sure it occured then no offense occured. It either happened or did not, Not I think so. If you issue a warning to a competitor and it is what you do for everyone in that instant then you are fair and consistent. Safety is first foremost and always at the forefront especially when you consider this sport of our is a dangerous one. I have had to make four DQ calles since becoming an RO. Three for ADs (2 on a reload and 1 on a move from position to another) and one for turning up range and sweeping the gallery when transitioning to a new position. All were experienced shooter. Hard to do yes, neccessary ABSOLUTELY! It is not a pleasant thing but it is necessary.

+1 on dqshooter #2 is what I try to be.

[Poppa Bear]

I'm with Scott on this one. Not getting the gun in the holster is way different from holstering without a mag inserted, or without racking the slide....

I have seen all three of these. I let the stage start when the mag was not inserted and when they forgot to rack the slide, the gun that did not get locked into the holster I stopped him and had him correct it before I resumed the commands. In the latter case the muzzle did not sir on the stub of his CR Speed holster. I was not going to start him with the chance of the gun falling out under its own weight.

[A45100]

Ok let me pose the impossible question, how do we address this situation in order to insure fairness in our sport.

You are on the arbitration committee, Shooter #1 gets ready and the RO notices he has not securely placed his pistol in his holster before he gives the "Are You Ready" command and has the shooter correct the problem and everything goes just fine. Shooter #2 does the same thing but the RO doesn't catch it this time. The commands are given, the timer goes beep and with the first step there is now a gun in the dirt and the RO DQ's the shooter. The first thing that comes out of the shooters mouth when the RM arrives is here's my arbitration fee, your RO's don't follow the same standard, they made sure the shooter before me secured his gun before he started but they let me walk right into a DQ, same holster, same situation. How are you, part of the arbitration committee going to rule on this?

Now let's take it one step further, let's play this out in two different scenarios. In the first the shooter that was corrected is a B class shooter and the DQ'd shooter is a top ranked GM, then let's reverse that. The corrected shooter is a top ranked GM and the DQ'd shooter is a B class shooter. How are you going to justify your decision in each scenario?

[Nik Habicht]

For the record guys I can't agree with you more so I talked to the CRO from the stage just to be sure I understood him right. according to him this is not from the rule book exactly it comes more from the game becoming more litigious all the time and guys carrying lawyers around in their range bags. Here is basically what he said.

"This falls under two items which you won't really find in the rule book. First, we teach that once make ready is given that only the official range commands are used. Secondly, and likely more important is the necessity of treating every shooter the same way. Some take this so far as not saying things like "nice run", "good job" and so on. There have been instances where stupid crap like this was cited as ROs showing favoritism or providing an advantage to one shooter over others. So, say another shooter came to the line after you assisted your guy and did the same thing, no one caught it, and his gun took a dirt bath? He might try to arb saying that he wasn't warned where others in his squad were and it only gets ugly from there. I detest that some in the sport take things to this level and I don't agree that we should not offer encouragement etc especially to our junior shooters. But that us the lay of the dang land right now. Make sense?

I'm sure this is going to open up a whole fresh new discussion but if it gets out there then we as shooters and match officials can put a stop to this kind of non-sense before we do have to start carrying lawyers in our range bags.

First, safety warnings may be issued at any time. (See 8.6.1) Safety warnings are purposely not defined -- since we can't predict every possible situation.

Second -- yes we should treat every competitor fairly, and make calls the same way every time. Warning the first competitor puts an onus on me to warn every competitor IF I notice the competitor doing the same thing. That's the essence of fairness. I'd like to be able to catch every call that needs to be made -- but over the course of a match it's possible for me to miss something. I'm human after all.

Third -- As an RO, I don't worry about arbitrations. I worry about the here and now, and make the best call I can. Arbitrations are above my paygrade; it doesn't matter to me whether I get upheld or overturned. I had to make the call in seconds or less; the arb committee has the luxury of time.

So, respectfully, I think your friend's wrong -- though I understand why he thinks the way he does. I just don't agree. I think that if everyone on the range worries about their job, without overthinking it, then the big picture takes care of itself.

[aztecdriver]

Ok let me pose the impossible question, how do we address this situation in order to insure fairness in our sport.

You are on the arbitration committee, Shooter #1 gets ready and the RO notices he has not securely placed his pistol in his holster before he gives the "Are You Ready" command and has the shooter correct the problem and everything goes just fine. Shooter #2 does the same thing but the RO doesn't catch it this time. The commands are given, the timer goes beep and with the first step there is now a gun in the dirt and the RO DQ's the shooter. The first thing that comes out of the shooters mouth when the RM arrives is here's my arbitration fee, your RO's don't follow the same standard, they made sure the shooter before me secured his gun before he started but they let me walk right into a DQ, same holster, same situation. How are you, part of the arbitration committee going to rule on this?

Now let's take it one step further, let's play this out in two different scenarios. In the first the shooter that was corrected is a B class shooter and the DQ'd shooter is a top ranked GM, then let's reverse that. The corrected shooter is a top ranked GM and the DQ'd shooter is a B class shooter. How are you going to justify your decision in each scenario?

Deny the request. A range official is not responsible for the actions of the shooter. They have a responsibility to ensure the safety of the range which will prevent them from allowing an unsafe action from occurring, if at all possible. That being said, they may not notice every situation that may occur in this situation in order to have the shooter correct a safety problem. The RO corrected a potentially unsafe situation they observed before it became one. In the other situation, they did not observe the situation, for whatever the reason, it's irrelevant. The gun hit the fell, the responsibility is the shooters. The DQ is upheld.

It makes no difference who the scenario is applied. The rules apply to one and all. It's unfortunate that the RO did not observe the situation from one to the next, but in the context that you presented the hypothetical, there is no reason to believe that the RO knew that the second instance the holster was not properly engaged. If you are surmising that the RO stated they knew that the other shooter was not holstered properly and allowed the shooter to move and DQ - that's still not cause to overturn the DQ, but I would definitely have a word with the RO.

The RO has a duty to correct an unsafe situation, if they are aware of it. Yet, the ultimate responsibility for safe gun handling resides on the shooter.

Edited May 24, 2012 by aztecdriver

[Nik Habicht]

Ok let me pose the impossible question, how do we address this situation in order to insure fairness in our sport.

You are on the arbitration committee, Shooter #1 gets ready and the RO notices he has not securely placed his pistol in his holster before he gives the "Are You Ready" command and has the shooter correct the problem and everything goes just fine. Shooter #2 does the same thing but the RO doesn't catch it this time. The commands are given, the timer goes beep and with the first step there is now a gun in the dirt and the RO DQ's the shooter. The first thing that comes out of the shooters mouth when the RM arrives is here's my arbitration fee, your RO's don't follow the same standard, they made sure the shooter before me secured his gun before he started but they let me walk right into a DQ, same holster, same situation. How are you, part of the arbitration committee going to rule on this?

Now let's take it one step further, let's play this out in two different scenarios. In the first the shooter that was corrected is a B class shooter and the DQ'd shooter is a top ranked GM, then let's reverse that. The corrected shooter is a top ranked GM and the DQ'd shooter is a B class shooter. How are you going to justify your decision in each scenario?

If I'm sitting on the arb committee, I congratulate the RO for preventing a potential accident. I offer my condolences to the shooter who's gun hit the dirt, and I uphold the DQ.

Dropping a gun is dangerous -- that's why the penalty's a match DQ. I expect my ROs to make the calls they see. If they see a DQ and won't call it, or ignore a clear opportunity to prevent a significant safety issue, I don't want them running a stage in our match.

The classification/stature of the shooter can't play a role. I've unfortunately had to disqualify people from all classes, and even had to turn potential competitors away from a match, when they could not safely get through the safety check.

[Flexmoney]

For the record guys I can't agree with you more so I talked to the CRO from the stage just to be sure I understood him right. according to him this is not from the rule book exactly it comes more from the game becoming more litigious all the time and guys carrying lawyers around in their range bags. Here is basically what he said.

"This falls under two items which you won't really find in the rule book. First, we teach that once make ready is given that only the official range commands are used. Secondly, and likely more important is the necessity of treating every shooter the same way. Some take this so far as not saying things like "nice run", "good job" and so on. There have been instances where stupid crap like this was cited as ROs showing favoritism or providing an advantage to one shooter over others. So, say another shooter came to the line after you assisted your guy and did the same thing, no one caught it, and his gun took a dirt bath? He might try to arb saying that he wasn't warned where others in his squad were and it only gets ugly from there. I detest that some in the sport take things to this level and I don't agree that we should not offer encouragement etc especially to our junior shooters. But that us the lay of the dang land right now. Make sense?

I'm sure this is going to open up a whole fresh new discussion but if it gets out there then we as shooters and match officials can put a stop to this kind of non-sense before we do have to start carrying lawyers in our range bags.

First, safety warnings may be issued at any time. (See 8.6.1) Safety warnings are purposely not defined -- since we can't predict every possible situation.

Second -- yes we should treat every competitor fairly, and make calls the same way every time. Warning the first competitor puts an onus on me to warn every competitor IF I notice the competitor doing the same thing. That's the essence of fairness. I'd like to be able to catch every call that needs to be made -- but over the course of a match it's possible for me to miss something. I'm human after all.

Third -- As an RO, I don't worry about arbitrations. I worry about the here and now, and make the best call I can. Arbitrations are above my paygrade; it doesn't matter to me whether I get upheld or overturned. I had to make the call in seconds or less; the arb committee has the luxury of time.

So, respectfully, I think your friend's wrong -- though I understand why he thinks the way he does. I just don't agree. I think that if everyone on the range worries about their job, without overthinking it, then the big picture takes care of itself.

Big +1 for what Nik said.

Your buddy is mis-informed. Sorta. Sticking to Range Commands is good, but he must realize that safety warnings are allowed as well (Nik gave the rule there, it is covered.)

And, safety comes before competitor equity. Always. Saying one might miss a safety call, and using that reasoning to not make a safety correction...it'st bad logic. Call what you see. Strive to see more.

[moverfive]

The one thing that is and has always been an underlying (almost unwritten) rule in USPSA is "do what is fair and right for the competitor and to everyone at the match," even if that call may not be 100% supported by some rule.

Not saying ignore the rule book with that statement. Just that I have seen many RO's do things like give reshoots for weird situations, tell someone their gun is missing a mag, and etc...things that that could be challenged by a strict interpretation of the rulebook. However in all of those cases, I honestly cannot remember where anyone made an issue when such calls were the right and fair thing to do. Part of that reasoning is that we hope and expect that the same call/actions would be made if that we 'us' on the line.

I think this point goes back to the original poster's intent - customer service. Knowing everyone can have differing opinions as to the definition of "fair," but as long as you are consistent to everyone in your definition is what we all want from RO's.

[CHA-LEE]

I RO shooters in the same manner that I would want to be ROed while shooting. We all need to do our best to respect each other and remember that we are there to have a safe and fun match WHILE upholding the rules defined in the rule book. I don't think it comes down to "Customer Service" but instead treating everyone with the same level of respect regardless of their skill level or experience. Nobody is 100% correct all the time, Shooter or RO. We all need to have an open mind when it comes to doing things the best we can and knowing that there will always be a chance of something getting screwed up. That is the human factor that will never go away and we need to understand that.

Edited May 24, 2012 by CHA-LEE