Stage Design and Sequence of Weapon Use

[Langenator]

First off, I'll admit I've only ever shot one big match (LaRue 2012), so I may be way off, given the small sample size.

But here's my newby question: Is it pretty much standard, for stages in which the pistol and the rifle and/or shotgun are used, that the pistol must always be fired first, before moving on to the rifle/shotgun?

I ask because at LaRue, that seemed to always be the case, and there was at least one stage (stage 6) where, given the choice, I would have used both long guns before the pistol (rifle and shotgun targets were actually closer than the plate rack for the pistol.)

If it is the case that the pistol always goes first, what's the reasoning? Is it a concession to the open division? (Since the ability of open-type holsters to retain the pistol during vigorous movement seems iffy to me.)

At the local match I shoot at, slings are generally required on the rifles, and the sequence seems to usually go shotgun first, then pistol or rifle. The MD's distaste for staging weapons may have something to do with this, as well as the physical layout - on one stage we shot, the rifle would have been staged a good 30-40 yards from the start point.

[Blockhead]

My personal preference is to mix it up and provide some variety. The Multigun game does throw some curve balls that you have to anticipate.

Staged guns can increase the cycle time for a stage since it needs to be clear before the shooter can make ready and stage the firearm. Still, that may be preferable to the 180 and sweeping issues that come into play with slings and long guns.

It seems like the issues with holstered handguns are resolved based on the personal preference of the MD/RM and local range rules. SMM3G will usually have the handgun unloaded(empty chamber) to start if the potential exists for a prone position or a lot of movement before the handgun is utilized. It seems to be their preference.

That said, I'm not aware of any major multigun match that won't DQ the shooter if the handgun comes out of the holster. The MD's disagree on a lot of things but as a general rule, dropped guns are no bueno.

Another point of preference in stage design is whether or not you can require a handgun to be re-holstered in a safe condition. USPSA allows the shooter to do so but doesn't allow the COF to require it. The Iron Man often requires you to re-holster hot.

The more you shoot, the more you'll see new and original approaches. Variety is the spice...

Edited May 3, 2012 by Blockhead

[CJW]

There are plenty of stages where you start pistol holstered on an empty chamber precisely because you will shoot a long gun first. I'd say I have seen a pretty even mix of which guns start a stage.

One nice variation at Summit Point last year started with pistol, had a grounding table that you used before picking up the shotgun for a bunch of steel, then you took up the handgun again to finish the stage.

[Corey]

There are different ways to look at them. In a tactical sense, people look at handguns as a way to "fight your way to a rifle". Maybe the stage designer liked that train of thought and incorporated it. Another idea may just be they didn't want people doing a lot of running with hosltered guns, especially if there were any weird shooting positions that could allow the gun to fall out (saw a glock pop out of a bladetech this past weekend at a local 3gun match). Shooting the pistol first then grounding it eliminates that idea.

What you have seen is pretty opposite to me. Most of the 3gun matches I have shot ends with the pistol if its used and the shooter will normally begin holding the shotgun or rifle. Just the preferences of the stage designers I suppose. Just practice starting with and grounding all 3 guns safely and it won't be a problem and you wont be caught off guard at a match.

[elkboy]

On our pistol bay stages we try to shoot all the steel targets first, then the paper. So on pistol/rifle engage steel with pistol then paper with rifle. Pistol/shotgun can go either way depending on target arrays and shotgun/rifle would start with shotgun on steel.

[ClutchUSMC]

I try to do both in my matches, but I know as a guy who makes stages every month it is much easier to have you start with a long gun in your hand. That way I only have to have a place to dump it, not a staging area as well. If you start with the pistol, I now need a place to dump it and pick up the long gun. I also don't require slings at club matches. There are stages where you can use them, but I feel like its hard enough to get new shooters out without requiring them to buy and use another piece of gear they may not be familiar with or have ever even used before match day.

As other people already pointed out, it also speeds up setup/tear down/ stages/ etc when you don't have to LAMR in 2 spots and stage a gun, then wait for guns in different locations to ULSC. Another consideration that I try to take into account when selecting stages. If you have too big a gap between runs it can cause a big mess and keep you at the range much later than you needed to be.

[Alaskapopo]

I like to either have pistols first or last in a three gun stage not in the middle. Generally I prefer to have them first when its a rifle pistol stage adn second when its a shotgun pistol stage.

pat

[busyhawk]

On stage 6 at LaRue you didn't have to start with the pistol...that was only one way to shoot that stage! Open your mind!!! Oh, and on stage 1 at LaRue you started with the SG and then went to Pistol, just to refresh your memory.

For stage designers there are several reasons to shoot the rifle last...

One is while the shooter is going to war on some long range steel the rest of the stage can be reset if there is no safety consideration/reason...hard to do this with pistol last but it can happen.

Another reason rifle is the last weapon of choice is the designer is trying to get your blood pumping before you go to war on some long range steel:-)

With the right design there is no reason you have to design every stage with pistol first...Superstition MM3G started with the rifle first, then SG and then pistol on a long running stage. Now it did take a lot of time to reset and was a bottle neck compared to other stages this year but with a good crew and steel targets instead of paper at the end it could have ran smoother/faster.

As a stage designer I really don't think of the retention of the pistol when I come up with a COF. If after the design I am a little concerned/worried I can put a dump/pick up box to fix that problem/concern.

If a limited/open shooter wants to risk his iron falling out of his race holster then it is his call...I shoot open and have a very secure holster (COM)and I don't trust a Ghost/CR Speed race rig. The draw "for me" in a Multigun match is not going to win or loose the match.

Hope this helps,

RLTW,

Busyhawk

[Langenator]

On stage 6 at LaRue you didn't have to start with the pistol...that was only one way to shoot that stage! Open your mind!!! Oh, and on stage 1 at LaRue you started with the SG and then went to Pistol, just to refresh your memory.

Actually, I started LaRue at stage 2 and DQ'ed on stage 11, so I never saw stage 1.

I'm not designing stages at this point, I was just curious. Trying to understand how much is stage designer preference, how much is safety concern, etc. Art vs science.

[Alaskapopo]

On stage 6 at LaRue you didn't have to start with the pistol...that was only one way to shoot that stage! Open your mind!!! Oh, and on stage 1 at LaRue you started with the SG and then went to Pistol, just to refresh your memory.

Actually, I started LaRue at stage 2 and DQ'ed on stage 11, so I never saw stage 1.

I'm not designing stages at this point, I was just curious. Trying to understand how much is stage designer preference, how much is safety concern, etc. Art vs science.

I saw lots of DQs on stage 1 so many that I was scared even. What happened on stage 11. On stage 1 it was slugs on close steel after shooters lost track of their ammo count.

Pat

[Langenator]

On stage 6 at LaRue you didn't have to start with the pistol...that was only one way to shoot that stage! Open your mind!!! Oh, and on stage 1 at LaRue you started with the SG and then went to Pistol, just to refresh your memory.

Actually, I started LaRue at stage 2 and DQ'ed on stage 11, so I never saw stage 1.

I'm not designing stages at this point, I was just curious. Trying to understand how much is stage designer preference, how much is safety concern, etc. Art vs science.

I saw lots of DQs on stage 1 so many that I was scared even. What happened on stage 11. On stage 1 it was slugs on close steel after shooters lost track of their ammo count.

Pat

I shot WWII Division, so I was doing mag changes while moving between the pistol bays. Left the safety off, and with my brain concentrating on changing a mag whilst moving backwards and sideways, also left my booger hook on the bang switch...and, when I slammed the mag in (full mag with slide already forward, wanted to make sure it locked in) my trigger finger tightened enough to send one over the berm.

Loosing track of ammo count gave me fits on stage 10 with the buck and bird. I missed a couple of the buck targets, then got myself all bef**kled. Ended up standing there pumping buck out of the gun. Luckily the two types were different colors, so when I saw a green shell go in I knew I was OK.

At least I got to shoot 9 full stages before that.

[MarkCO]

Like Scott implied, the weapon order (with associated dump/retention issues) should be the secondary consideration in stage design. A stage should first be designed with the goal of challenging the top shooters and not making it impossible for the bottom 25% shooter. In pistol, this is easy, in 3G, it is more challenging for the course designer. While there can be an argument for starting with pistol to "fight" to the long guns, there is an equally valid argument for going to the pistol because the rifle went down (out of ammo, malf, etc.) in the contrived practical scenario. When the stage is laid out, then the weapon abandonment, safety considerations become primary and need to be considered carefully.

At the same time, I give no thought to divisional differences when I first design a 3G stage. When it is laid out, I do very much consider the flow for the capacity limited divisions. If there is a target array or position that forces them to load while doing nothing else, then I will change the array to create better flow for them. The only thing I do for Open is not paint targets bright red. Within the match, I try to consider all the stages as a group and make sure that if a stage or a few arrays favor left or right handed shooters, they are offsetting to be as neutral as possible.

[High Lord Gomer]

Because our bays are relatively short (50 and 100 yards) we usually start with the rifle so we can get some distance shots in before having them move forward and transitioning to other guns.

A couple of things I consider to be good safety practices:

1. If the pistol is to be holstered and is not the first gun used, it may have a full mag inserted but needs to have the hammer forward on an empty chamber
2. I prefer to usually stage guns with empty chanbers
3. Drop boxes/barrels go at the right or left edge of the shooting area and are pointed at the side berm just shy of the 180
4. No one (other than the shooter and ROs) go downrange of a staged or abandoned gun until it has been cleared by an RO

To speed things, because we have our long guns abandoned pointing toward the berm, we have an RO inspect the abandoned gun while the shooter and other ROs are still finishing the stage. If it was abandoned in an unsafe condition, that RO stays there until the shooter and CRO come back to that gun for the DQ. If it was abandaoned in a safe condition, the RO clears it and carries it back to the rack and the resetting of the stage proceeds.

If we have a missed target that we think the shooter may try to return to, we keep everyone all of the way back until the shooter is done.