Unloaded Table Start

[Bwana Six-Gun]

Shooting Production,stage description calls for an unloaded table start. Hammer down, slide down. Shooter is using a pistol without a de-cocker, i.e. CZ Sp-101 for example. If the shooter loads, racks the slide and then does not lower the hammer before the first shot, does he/she get a procedural or bump to Open for failing to meet requirements of division? Remember rules say first shot in Production must be fired double-action. What do you say?

[JThompson]

Shooting Production,stage description calls for an unloaded table start. Hammer down, slide down. Shooter is using a pistol without a de-cocker, i.e. CZ Sp-101 for example. If the shooter loads, racks the slide and then does not lower the hammer before the first shot, does he/she get a procedural or bump to Open for failing to meet requirements of division? Remember rules say first shot in Production must be fired double-action. What do you say?

No, since the WSB forces them intoan unloaded position then the loaded rule is not applicable.

JT

[Scott R]

Where do the rules address the first shot for Production division other than the following?

In APPENDIX D4

"Special conditions:

— Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked at the start signal."

[lilbeauxdawg]

Shooting Production,stage description calls for an unloaded table start. Hammer down, slide down. Shooter is using a pistol without a de-cocker, i.e. CZ Sp-101 for example. If the shooter loads, racks the slide and then does not lower the hammer before the first shot, does he/she get a procedural or bump to Open for failing to meet requirements of division? Remember rules say first shot in Production must be fired double-action. What do you say?

what rule says this. I can only find that Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked at the start signal. (APP. D)

[jdphotoguy]

Rule 8.1.3 mentions an unloaded handgun start, but don't see anything about the requirement of first shot being double action from that ready condition.

[Nik Habicht]

Bwana,

shooters are free to manually cock the gun anytime after the beep -- so loading the gun isn't any different.....

No procedural, no move to Open.....

[coldchar]

8.1.2 In the chapter covering course of fire specifies double action guns start with hammer down. Thus even if it was not in the WSB, which the question stated it was, it would still be a procedural. Starting with the hammer down is not a division requirement thus no transfer to open.

Jim

[Poppa Bear]

Shooting Production,stage description calls for an unloaded table start. Hammer down, slide down. Shooter is using a pistol without a de-cocker, i.e. CZ Sp-101 for example. If the shooter loads, racks the slide and then does not lower the hammer before the first shot, does he/she get a procedural or bump to Open for failing to meet requirements of division? Remember rules say first shot in Production must be fired double-action. What do you say?

8.1.3 Courses of fire may require ready conditions which are different to

those stated above. In such cases, the required ready condition must be

clearly stated in the written stage briefing. When a Handgun Ready

Condition requires a handgun be prepared with an empty chamber (or

cylinder), the slide of the handgun must be fully forward (or the cylinder

must be fully closed) and the hammer or striker must be fully down

or fully forward, as the case may be, unless otherwise specified in the

stage briefing.

From App D 4:

Special conditions:

— Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked at the start signal.

Whether the start is loaded or unloaded as long as the gun is in the proper form as required by the rules or the WSB at the start signal it is all OK.

I have never seen a start that requires the slide to be locked to the rear, so I will assume that ALL unloaded starts will be slide forward and hammer down on an empty chamber.

[Skydiver]

Shooting Production,stage description calls for an unloaded table start. Hammer down, slide down. Shooter is using a pistol without a de-cocker, i.e. CZ Sp-101 for example. If the shooter loads, racks the slide and then does not lower the hammer before the first shot, does he/she get a procedural or bump to Open for failing to meet requirements of division? Remember rules say first shot in Production must be fired double-action. What do you say?

what rule says this. I can only find that Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked at the start signal. (APP. D)

He must be thinking about the IPSC rules for loaded gun starts. IPSC imposes penalties for cocking the hammer on a DA gun for the first shot. USPSA on the other hand has no such restriction.

[Skydiver]

8.1.2 In the chapter covering course of fire specifies double action guns start with hammer down. Thus even if it was not in the WSB, which the question stated it was, it would still be a procedural. Starting with the hammer down is not a division requirement thus no transfer to open.

Jim

Procedural, or should the RO have not even have started the shooter because the shooter and his equipment were on in the appropriate start condition?

I think that the RO should not have started the shooter.

[ForrestB]

8.1.2 In the chapter covering course of fire specifies double action guns start with hammer down. Thus even if it was not in the WSB, which the question stated it was, it would still be a procedural. Starting with the hammer down is not a division requirement thus no transfer to open.

Jim

Procedural, or should the RO have not even have started the shooter because the shooter and his equipment were on in the appropriate start condition?

I think that the RO should not have started the shooter.

At the start signal the hammer is down. What is the problem? No procedural, no transfer to open.

[CZinSC]

Shooter wasn't in the correct start position ( or I should say the gun wasn't ), so the RO should not have started him. I think if it comes to light after the fact that the hammer was back, it's a reshoot. I think it would be the same as starting with hands relaxed as opposed to in the surrender position. Not positive about that. But shooter definitely shouldn't have been given the start signal.

[Nik Habicht]

8.1.2 In the chapter covering course of fire specifies double action guns start with hammer down. Thus even if it was not in the WSB, which the question stated it was, it would still be a procedural. Starting with the hammer down is not a division requirement thus no transfer to open.

Jim

Jim,

so you'd assess a procedural for a Limited or Revolver shooter who cocks the hammer after the start signal, before firing the first shot?

There is no rule requiring the first shot to be fired DA.....

The shooter is free to trade time for an SA first shot....

[Nik Habicht]

8.1.2 In the chapter covering course of fire specifies double action guns start with hammer down. Thus even if it was not in the WSB, which the question stated it was, it would still be a procedural. Starting with the hammer down is not a division requirement thus no transfer to open.

Jim

Procedural, or should the RO have not even have started the shooter because the shooter and his equipment were on in the appropriate start condition?

I think that the RO should not have started the shooter.

We're talking about the hammer being cocked by racking the first round into the chamber, while loading a previously unloaded gun, after the start signal....

[Nik Habicht]

Shooter wasn't in the correct start position ( or I should say the gun wasn't ), so the RO should not have started him. I think if it comes to light after the fact that the hammer was back, it's a reshoot. I think it would be the same as starting with hands relaxed as opposed to in the surrender position. Not positive about that. But shooter definitely shouldn't have been given the start signal.

Gun was in the correct start position -- unloaded -- at the start signal....

[coldchar]

Start position refers to the shooters body not the gun condition. Nothing in the question implied that there was a problem with the start position thus no reshoot.

The gun condition "at the start signal" in the WSB was hammer down. Thus the procedural. Granted, in a lot of level 1 clubs with a half dozen shooters who go out for lunch together after, no one may make an issue of it.

Other level 1 matches , where you may have a couple of GM's battling it out and the first shot is a 40 yard target, the gun being cocked or not could make all the difference in who comes in first.

Once the start signal is given the shooter can cock the gun to their hearts content as long as there is not a safety issue.

Jim

[coldchar]

8.1.2 In the chapter covering course of fire specifies double action guns start with hammer down. Thus even if it was not in the WSB, which the question stated it was, it would still be a procedural. Starting with the hammer down is not a division requirement thus no transfer to open.

Jim

Jim,

so you'd assess a procedural for a Limited or Revolver shooter who cocks the hammer after the start signal, before firing the first shot?

There is no rule requiring the first shot to be fired DA.....

The shooter is free to trade time for an SA first shot....

My response:

After the start signal they can cock the hammer to their hearts content.

Jim

Edited April 27, 2012 by coldchar

[Poppa Bear]

Start position refers to the shooters body not the gun condition. Nothing in the question implied that there was a problem with the start position thus no reshoot.

The gun condition "at the start signal" in the WSB was hammer down. Thus the procedural. Granted, in a lot of level 1 clubs with a half dozen shooters who go out for lunch together after, no one may make an issue of it.

Other level 1 matches , where you may have a couple of GM's battling it out and the first shot is a 40 yard target, the gun being cocked or not could make all the difference in who comes in first.

Once the start signal is given the shooter can cock the gun to their hearts content as long as there is not a safety issue.

Jim

The gun was hammer down in the OP's description. He was asking about having to drop the hammer again so as to take a DA first shot because he thought it was required in Production when it is an unloaded start.

[CZinSC]

That's what I get for answering a post before my morning coffee! I misunderstood the OP. I thought he was starting unloaded with the hammer cocked. Clearly not what he said. My apologies.

To the OP's original question, NO, no procedureal, no bump to open. No penalties whatsoever. There is no rule requiring first shot to be DA. The rule is the gun starts hammer down.

You are not required to drop the hammer on an unloaded start where you are required to load after the start signal. You are good to go.

[coldchar]

Whoops,went back and read the question again. It was an unloaded table start. So the loading etc would have been done after the start signal. Nothing wrong there.

Jim

[Steven Cline]

Shooting Production,stage description calls for an unloaded table start. Hammer down, slide down. Shooter is using a pistol without a de-cocker, i.e. CZ Sp-101 for example. If the shooter loads, racks the slide and then does not lower the hammer before the first shot, does he/she get a procedural or bump to Open for failing to meet requirements of division? Remember rules say first shot in Production must be fired double-action. What do you say?

No procedural no bump to open; the gun was in the correct condition at the start signal. The shooter loaded the gun after the start signal and is not required to lower the hammer after the start signal to fire the first shot. The shooter is required to lower the hammer prior to the start signal on a loaded start.